Britain versus The Pope

[MikeH]

Equality FTW.

I think it's great that the coverage I've seen of this has largely been about how outrageous his comments are. I just wish Gordon Brown had had the balls to comment. He's afraid of losing a bit of Catholic vote in the election, of course, but I think there are a lot of votes to win if he'd come out strongly in support of the UK's equality laws. Equality is great, and things genuinely are pretty good and improving all the time in that area here. Call these views out for what they are, out of date and homophobic.

[Dinner]

So who is winning?

Not the ex-Hitler Youth guy who spent decades protecting pedophile priests and preventing them from receiving criminal sentences for their child abuse.

[MikeH]

It's funny how attitudes have changed to the pope since we went from one that looked like a nice cuddly grandad to one that looks like a cartoon villain.

They are basically saying the same stuff but with this one it just seems more evil!

[Dinner]

I have never liked Ratzinger and my opposition had very little to do with his past in the Hitler Youth and instead had everything to do with the fact that he was the point man charged with relocating pedophile priests who sexually abused children. He knew these people were guilty but his job was to protect the church not protect children from pedophiles so he didn't give a **** about the children who were victims. He actively protected pedophile priests from the consequences of their lawless behaviors. He relocated them where they could attack more children, that is not the actions of a moral man, and for that I will not forgive him.

[BeBMan]

Not the ex-Hitler Youth guy who spent decades protecting pedophile priests and preventing them from receiving criminal sentences for their child abuse.

Never been a fan of him, but the "ex-Hitler Youth" thing makes not much of an argument given that from a certain point (39 IIRC, and he came in later) it was not a choice for kids to stay out, even if the parents wanted them not to become members.

[Heresson]

Gay Catholics

When it comes to the matter itself: While I'd like RCC accept gays fully, it makes no sense to try to FORCE it to do so, it will only cause backlash. Especially since RCC works outside Britain too, and it can not have separate laws for church in England and in Angola.
Gay activism has gone a bit too far in this case.

[Ben Kenobi]

1- Sub-contract all the secular roles so they aren't directly employing them. That might appease the relevant deity.

How about maintaining their integrity and serving the people by ignoring an unjust law? I can't see how it's of any benefit to the church to acknowledge a law that breaks the whole principle of freedom of association. The Church, not the state is the one that is responsible for hiring people, and they can hire whomever they damn well please.

2- Shut down their secular operations. Market forces will replace the essential ones.

This may happen, but will market forces replace them? I don't know. What will likely happen is that you'll see a drastic and permanent reduction in the aid services, and you'll see a mammoth expansion in the power of the state to replace this aid. Or the Church will just defy you and force you to decide whether you want to have the optics of discriminating and arresting their members. We've been here before.

3- Ordain a lot more priests to act as secretaries, etc.

Don't see why this is relevant. If the church has the right to exclude gay people from the priesthood, this same right applies to their other positions. This is why the Church would sooner stop providing the same services they always have then capitulate on this point.

Oh, weren't you one of the folks who assured me that this would NEVER happen?

I predicted that this would happen years ago, and I'm so glad that I've been proven entirely right. Everyone said that the church would not be forced to hire gay people, and here we are. So much for fearmongering! Seems I've been telling it like it is.

I'll repeat myself. The only man in Britain today who gets it is Mark Steyn. You'd do well to listen to him, and what he has to say.

[MikeH]

Explain how "You must treat everyone the same" is unjust pls, thx.

[Ben Kenobi]

MikeH, it's unjust because it violates freedom of association.

Private businesses and charities have the right to hire the best person for the job.

[MikeH]

And we get back do Laz's question, how exactly does being gay make you less good at the job?

BTW. What would Jesus do? Every time someone told him "Oh, hey Jesus, you can't hang around with them!" for whatever reason he'd go out of his way to hang around with them to make a point.

Can't help thinking if someone said "hey, you can't hire him to do your admin, he's gay!" He'd have gone ahead and hired them whilst telling an informative parable along the lines of not judging others, forgiveness etc.

[Ben Kenobi]

And we get back do Laz's question, how exactly does being gay make you less good at the job?

Would you donate to a Catholic charity that hired people in direct opposition to the teachings of the Catholic church? It's essential for every charity to only hire people who are in accordance with the values and the purpose of the charity. Otherwise donations will dry up as people believe that the charity no longer represents the ideals on which they were founded.

It's essential to civil liberties that Charities be permitted to hire those that they want, not whom the state tells them to hire.

BTW. What would Jesus do? Every time someone told him "Oh, hey Jesus, you can't hang around with them!" for whatever reason he'd go out of his way to hang around with them to make a point.

That is true. Now, who did Jesus select to be the disciples? Did he say that they had an obligation to uphold his teachings as his representatives here on Earth?

Today, the modern day Jesus would never have been able to get the Church started because he would have had to hire women.

The modern pc understanding of quotas is a horrible way to do business.

Can't help thinking if someone said "hey, you can't hire him to do your admin, he's gay!" He'd have gone ahead and hired them whilst telling an informative parable along the lines of not judging others, forgiveness etc.

Which is why he lambasted the Pharisees for failing to abide by God's teachings as his representatives? Why didn't he hire the Pharisees to be his disciples?

[MikeH]

STRAW MAN!

Our equality law isn't saying you have to have quotas, it's saying you can't say "He's not the best person for the job because he's gay/black/white/muslim/christian/female" no matter what your personal beliefs are.

[Elok]

Eh, the law sounds stupid and counterproductive. Also, how many gays want to work for the Catholic church anyway? That'd be like a black guy wanting to work for the KKK.

[MikeH]

The law is for everyone who employs anyone. It's not specifically aimed at the catholic church. So the question is "how many gays want a job"?

[Elok]

Oh. So there's not too much point making a fuss. The gays aren't going to want to work there anyway, it's like the definition of a hostile work environment.