How "Christian" of him!!

[Boris Godunov]

Is that your standard? Don't you have any concern that you don't follow the true God?

Do you stay up at night worrying that Allah is going to cast you into the fire because you're not a Muslim?

[MrFun]

Muslims, Christians, and Jews all believe in the same God anyway. Who am I say, that, as a Christian, Muslims and Jews are going to hell because they have different customs while believing in the same God? I am not all-knowing, so I cannot say how God judges each of us when we arrive to the afterlife.

[Ben Kenobi]

But Noah found grace in the eyes of YHWH

This is all Genesis 6 says. It says nothing about Noah being 'perfect'.

How did he find Grace? Gen 6 doesn't get into that any further. Perhaps God tested his heart and he met the challenge.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, it's still a logical problem, since I don't accept the logic that creating sentient beings therefore confers on one the right to destroy them. "I created you, ergo I can destroy you" is unjust.

Why is it unjust? Is it more unjust than not creating anyone at all?

IF it were proven to you tomorrow, beyond any doubt in your mind, that no god existed, would you therefore think that parents had the right to destroy their children, since they would be their only "creators?"

I once believed exactly this. Now I don't I can't see any reason why I'd put those clothes back on.

If the god who dictated morals doesn't have to follow them, then yes, of course they're arbitrary.

How so? God has different rules for men, different rules for animals and makes a distinction between people and animals. Why wouldn't there be a distinction between God and man? This is why Christ was necessary btw, because he was the bridge between men and God.

That they might coincide with what reason would determine to be acceptable behavior is irrelevant. If a god is perfect, and he can murder and lie all he wants, then murdering and lying must be considered part of "perfection." You can't call it ineffable morality if the guy who made the rules can break the rules. That's just utter hypocrisy.

How is it murder, when God ends someone's life? He created that person.

And no, I don't abide by the rules of the Biblical god.

Do not murder. Do not lie. You abide by those, don't you?

That some of the rules by which I abide match those rules is just coincidence.

I was once an agnostic. This is complete and utter nonsense. Why follow the rules of the Christian God, and label him a hypocrite if you are an atheist? Why not chart your own path. Argue, same as I did then, if His rules are bad, then there is no reason to follow them at all.

I don't need a big sky daddy ordering me around in order to behave morally. Hell, obeying rules just because you think a divine punisher ordered you to isn't morality at all--it's just being servile.

So why do you follow the exact same playbook? Is it because you recognise that God is so good, that you don't need him to tell you anything, you just do it? Or is it because there is a law written on your heart.

I find your answer that you believe lying and murder to be wrong as mere coincidence unsatisfying. Is that all you, as an atheist offer for justification in the employ of your epithet 'hypocrisy'?

I seem the recall the Biblical god described as being "jealous and angry" when people worshipped other gods...

Indeed, for they worshipped the creation instead of the Creator.

That's one of the stupidest things you've said among many stupid things.

You should be asking yourself, why is Ben asking stupid questions. I ask stupid questions all the time.

Do you want me to comment on the nature of Ogopogo or Yeti? I mean, there haven't been any threads on Apolyton about them in recent memory, have there? Are you seriously suggesting that one has to argue against all fictitious entities simultaneously?

I'm arguing that you feel no need to comment on the morality of Yeti because he simply doesn't exist in your mind. You do feel the need to argue against God because you see him as all too real. Remember, I've been here Boris. I know this way of being and I found plenty of evidence even without the bible that there was a God who loved us and loved us very much.

I think you do too. All I'm saying is let the hurt go Boris. Hurt, pain, anger this is what I get from you. Let it go.

[Berzerker]

In the Jewish and Christian versions, which are the more relevant ones, Noah preached about it and was mocked for it before the deluge.

More relevant? The Sumerians wrote this stuff down long before the Bible. But even assuming the later versions were more accurate, that does not constitute a warning to the vastness of humanity. And fake Boris is right, it aint even a valid warning for the people Noah told - he aint God.

Why would such a big boat be a secret? Why would relatively few people know about it? You are assuming a lot. I assume too, but I recognize my assumption, I don't go out and say that the Bible shows X. Rather I am saying that the Bible doesn't show Y.

And the New Testament assuredly implies X.

JM

The secret was the gods keeping us in the dark about an impending flood they could not prevent - they fled the Earth when it happened. The Sumerian Noah told people he was building the boat to sail away because Enlil was angry with him. The people who helped him build the boat were invited aboard and they did accept, Enki even provided a navigator. Now why do we need to argue over the assumption relatively few people knew about Noah building the ark? Isn't that obvious?

[Darius871]

My apologies to Darius for stealing his method of trying to bludgeon points into incredibly thick skulls.

Believe me, it doesn't work. Ignore is your friend

[Boris Godunov]

This is all Genesis 6 says. It says nothing about Noah being 'perfect'.

How did he find Grace? Gen 6 doesn't get into that any further. Perhaps God tested his heart and he met the challenge.

Gen 6:

9 This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

Not that it is relevant if he wasn't considered perfect--Nowhere in Genesis does it make any claim that God talked to anyone else about the impending flood, so any conjecture as to such is just making **** up.

[Boris Godunov]

Why is it unjust? Is it more unjust than not creating anyone at all?

False dichotomy. Any omnipotent, omniscient being could surely create a universe where it wasn't necessary at all for it to ever have to kill a child. What's the point of being all-knowing if you couldn't predict and therefore prevent cases where you'll have to do such a horrible thing?

I once believed exactly this. Now I don't I can't see any reason why I'd put those clothes back on.

WHAT?!



OK, I admit I have a hard time believing you're being honest here--this sounds like just another "lie for Christ" that you are so prone to make.

But if it is true... holy ****, you're one messed up person. If you were so morally and intellectually weak that you would actually think such a thing, absent a divine dictate to tell you otherwise, then you qualify as a sociopath. Part of me hesitates to continue this conversation, because in the off chance I somehow convinced you to abandon your faith, then I suppose you would be one of those who would commit atrocities...

I would imagine it's painful for you to see atheists living their lives without believing in god and yet not exhibiting such moral weakness as you would. It must make you feel really morally inferior.

All that aside... you did not answer my question on that issue, you dodged it.

I ask again: if it's proven to you tomorrow, beyond any doubt, there is no god, will you therefore think it's morally acceptable for parents to kill their own children for any reason they so choose?

How so? God has different rules for men, different rules for animals and makes a distinction between people and animals. Why wouldn't there be a distinction between God and man? This is why Christ was necessary btw, because he was the bridge between men and God.

See my response to Kidicious above. Animals are different because they don't have sentience, they aren't self-aware. Regarding a god and men, as I said to Kid, something is either moral or immoral based on the act itself, not on who is committing it. If it's immoral to kill innocents, it's immoral to kill innocents. Arguing otherwise renders the morality/immorality meaningless. Then it just becomes "anything the god says to do is moral, anything that you do in defiance of what the god says to do is immoral." That's not genuine morality, that's just arbitrary rules, as it can change on the god's whim. And there is no moral force behind a dictate that the dictator can violate at will. The moral loses its intrinsic value.

So why do you follow the exact same playbook? Is it because you recognise that God is so good, that you don't need him to tell you anything, you just do it? Or is it because there is a law written on your heart.

Uh, clearly I *don't* follow the exact same playbook. Are you a complete ******? You're talking to someone who is gay and neither ashamed of it nor thinks it's immoral. Where's that in the Biblical god's playbook? There are tons of cases where my morality and the Bible's diverge.

I have arrived at morality independent of any belief in a god. That's because I can rationally justify my morals, without having to appeal to a magical being to tell me so. That's part of being a rational, empathetic human being. That some (but definitely not all) of my morals coincide with Bible morals is just that--a coincidence. It's the same coincidence that will have different civilizations on opposite side of the globe with entirely different religious traditions believe in some similar moral values. It's because some basic moral ideas (not murdering, not stealing, not lying), are EASY to justify without divine dictate. They make good rational sense in their own right, to anyone with an ounce of empathy.

If you need a god to tell you what's right and wrong, then you have no genuine moral compass and are just an automaton, subject to the dubious interpretations of translations of 2000+ year old writings that were passed down orally for centuries and centuries...

Or, depending how insane you are, to any voice in your head that convinces you it's your god and tells you to start gunning down infidels.

Indeed, for they worshipped the creation instead of the Creator.

Exactly, god coveted the worship they were giving to something else. Envy is a sin, isn't it?

I'm arguing that you feel no need to comment on the morality of Yeti because he simply doesn't exist in your mind. You do feel the need to argue against God because you see him as all too real. Remember, I've been here Boris. I know this way of being and I found plenty of evidence even without the bible that there was a God who loved us and loved us very much.

Show me a thread here where anyone has posited the existence of the Yeti. To claim there's something revealing about me not arguing against stupid notions that no one has even brought up yet is just about the dumbest bit of illogic you've engaged in to date.

I am an equal-opportunity non-believer in ooga-booga myths, be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Nordic mythology, Animism, witchcraft, astrology, leprechaunism, etc. The thing is that the only belief system that comes up on this board tends to be Christianity, which also happens to be the one that dominates the culture in which I live, so it's only logical it is the one I will most find myself arguing against. Look who created this thread--a Christian, not an atheist.

If that doesn't help you get it, then look at the moon landing thread, you dolt. There I'm arguing rather heatedly with another moron who is suggesting, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, that the moon landing is fake. By your asinine logic, I must therefore be a closet moon conspiracy believer who's only arguing to try and cover up my feelings. That's a ****ing stupid notion.

This is why Jon Miller, Imran, and Nikolai--and who knows how many other better Christians--rebuke you for your complete and utter failure to represent your faith well. You give your religion a bad name by engaging in such transparently dishonest tactics and impugning the motives rather than engaging in genuine debate.

I think you do too. All I'm saying is let the hurt go Boris. Hurt, pain, anger this is what I get from you. Let it go.

Thanks, Dr. Phil

The idea that you thought such a blatantly manipulative (and piss-poor) attempt to get at me emotionally would work is hilarious. You've so misjudged your target, it's laughable.

To correct one of your earlier bad assumptions: I'm not an "ex-Christian," I've never been one. The closest I've come to believing in anything metaphysical was a flirtation with Buddhism in college. But I soon realized that it was just as irrational as the other religions.

If I thought there were a god, I wouldn't feel any need to be angry with it, since I enjoy great health, relatively abundant wealth, and lead a rather lovely life full of the joys of friends, family, and even a sweet cat that is a total purr monster.

[Kidlicious]

Muslims, Christians, and Jews all believe in the same God anyway. Who am I say, that, as a Christian, Muslims and Jews are going to hell because they have different customs while believing in the same God? I am not all-knowing, so I cannot say how God judges each of us when we arrive to the afterlife.

Christ said, "whoever is not for me is against me."

[Kidlicious]

Do you stay up at night worrying that Allah is going to cast you into the fire because you're not a Muslim?

No because I've educated myself on Islam. That's different from someone believing in God, but not seeking out his true identity, nature and what he wants from us.

[Boris Godunov]

Not buying it anymore, Kid.

[Kidlicious]

I do. It's you who don't.

I'll just say that as a Christian I don't believe that one should fool his self into believing that God would just let them do whatever they want. That results in all kinds of evil. Look at the leaders of the Islamic state in Iran. They claim to be holy but lie, murder and exploit the poor.

If I were to claim to be holy, but not follow every tenet of my religion to the T then I would be no better than them.

[Kidlicious]

How would you know the dictator is infinitely wise? Just because he says so?

That's the point--yes, Christians claim the Biblical God is morally perfect and wise, but his actions as described in the Bible say otherwise to people who have genuine morals, rather than "morality by fiat."

What makes your morals so genuine? I'm betting they fit perfectly with your lifestyle and worldly desires.

[Kidlicious]

Which makes the law arbitrary, and therefore unjust. Christians always are talking about a "higher morality," but this defies that idea, because it's nothing more than authoritarian dictate. It renders morality meaningless. "Do as I say, not as I do."

If the only reason not to do something is because a god said not to do it, there's no moral force behind it. If the reason not to do something is because it is in and of itself a bad thing to do, then it's just as bad if a god does it as when a human does it. Either it's morally wrong in and of itself, or it's arbitrary.

You don't understand my beliefs. We believe God is just because it says so in the scriptures. Whatever adversity you go through in life God makes you whole for it and then increases your blessings beyond what you deserve.

You seem to be caught up on the fact that you have to obey him. Well why wouldn't you, since he created you. He knows you better than yourself. You are his little one. Don't be foolish.

[Kidlicious]

So Ben I was reading the epistles like you advised and...

1 Corinthians 5

Expel the Immoral Brother!
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]

In other words don't share what is holy with dogs...

Also, just because someone calls themselves a Christian brother doesn't make them one. Calling someone a Christian brother who commits evil act without remorse is a sin. When we do so we hurt ourselves the unrepentant person and we hurt the church.