How "Christian" of him!!

[Boris Godunov]

Finally, a real argument.

You mean an off-topic one that is theological debate about your holy book? No, thank you. Figures you'd want to retreat to something like this.

I will say that I don't have any desire--one way or another--for the church to be "destroyed." Certainly I don't want to "bring down" the believers--I think everyone has a right to believe whatever they want, no matter how nonsensical or stupid.

What I want is for the church to stop hurting people and trying to tell people who aren't even Catholic what to do or how to live. If the Church wasn't such a cancer on the world when it came to shoe-horning its dogma into public policy or spreading harmful ignorance around the world that actually costs lives, then I'd have no concerns about it. Same goes for the Mormon church.

I don't have any criticisms for Unitarians or Quakers, though, who mind their own business. If all churches could be like those folks, the world would just be a much nicer place.

Religious people keeping their dogma to themselves = win.

[Asher]

@Theben

Really?

[Theben]

No, not really.

[Theben]

It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

[MrFun]

Theben, I come to the thread because I want to read OTHER PEOPLE'S posts.

Get it now?

[Kidlicious]

It's a statement of fact about the way the world works. Few are willing to devote themselves to God's harvest.

It's a statement of fact about how the world worked when Jesus walked the earth. That's why Jesus came when he did. The world isn't suppose to be like that. It's like that because people aren't willing to take up the cross.

Not necessarily. If they are good servants then yes, but bad servants will not only deprive God the benefit of their labour, but deprive him of the labour of others.

You are only a good servent by the grace of God. If someone want's to work they should be able to. You can be as good a servent as you wish to be. No one can take that away from you.

WTF? I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying, you want to work for God, you play by his rules. You want to work for yourself, play by your own. If your rules are more important than God's, then forget about working for him.

Who said they were going to break the rules? Perhaps if you hired catholics only they would break the rules. Hire the best person available to harvest the most.

[Kidlicious]

Ben,

Jesus told the disciples that they will know you are his disciples by the fruit you bear. Some sinners here profess that you bear bad fruit. Do any profess that you bear good fruit? Do you love the sinners like Jesus does?

[Ben Kenobi]

Which gay rights charities are being funded by the government that are allowed exemptions from certain laws?

This is a circular argument. We are discussing the legitimacy of this particular law in the first place. You can't use the existance of the law as justification for the law in itself.

Can you even provide an example of a gay rights group getting government funding?

Sure can. Gimme a sec.

http://new.vawnet.org/funding/currentfunding.php

GRANTS
PRIVATE GRANTS-PROGRAMS and SERVICES
Social Justice
Funding: The Arcus LGBT Program

Administering Agency: Arcus Foundation

Program: The goal of the Arcus LGBT Program is to advance social justice inclusive of sexual orientation, gender identity and race. It supports organizations, programs and projects working in the following areas: advancing LGBT rights locally, nationally, and internationally; religion and values; and racial justice, sexual orientation, and gender identity.

Award: Varies-grants awarded in 2008 to date: 40 grants totaling $11,458,592

Eligibility: United States applicants must be tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organizations; non-U.S. applicants must have U.S. 501(c)(3) equivalent status

Application Guidelines/Submissions: Visit the website for complete application guidelines/submission.

Website: The Arcus LGBT Program

As usual, you're incapable of grasping the point here: if the government is going to be giving money to charities

Why are they giving money to charities. If they are giving over 11 million dollars to an ostentatiously pro-gay rights foundation like Arcus, then what's the huff over giving to the Catholic church?

If a church sees a gay rights org getting money and wants some, too, they're more than welcome to get it--if they abide by the same rules. That's the only fair way.

Oh, baloney. The Gay rights charities are explicitly lobbying to CHANGE the rules to favour them. Not a level playing field. Are organisations like Arcus required to have 1/4th of their staff as Catholics? Yes or no?

If they don't want to follow the rules, as the church charities in DC seem not to want to do, there's no problem with that, they can just do without government money. But *****ing about other groups getting money that ARE following the rules while they don't get money because they refuse to follow the rules is utter nonsense.

We are debating whether the rules are in fact fair. If the Catholic church lobbied and passed a law saying that zero dollars of funding should go to gay charities, than would you accept the law as just? Hardly. You'd be the first one to blast the law as discriminatory.

That is precisely what this law does. It's directed squarely at the Catholic church, and not any other charities. Absolutely and completely discriminatory without the conscience clause.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus told the disciples that they will know you are his disciples by the fruit you bear. Some sinners here profess that you bear bad fruit. Do any profess that you bear good fruit? Do you love the sinners like Jesus does?

They also crucified Christ, so I'm not sure exactly why sinners would like someone who openly challenges them for their sins.

Yes, I love them, and yes, they are going to say that I bear bad fruit. But, the gay people on poly aren't the only people here. I have people who have come to me and said thank you for what I've said because they hope that all of you will take the opportunity to repent.

Do you think I'd be saying this if I didn't believe you'd be happier living this way? No.

Part of it is because I had people come to me and do the exact same thing, and rattle my cage.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's a statement of fact about how the world worked when Jesus walked the earth. That's why Jesus came when he did. The world isn't suppose to be like that. It's like that because people aren't willing to take up the cross.

Exactly, but the world is not as it ought to be. That is all I am saying. I am saying it is no different now than it was when Christ was here. Human nature is fundamentally unchanged and remains sinful.

You are only a good servent by the grace of God. If someone want's to work they should be able to. You can be as good a servent as you wish to be. No one can take that away from you.

Why? I don't get to decide who I work for. Someone hires me. It's their decision, not mine, unless of course I work for myself.

Who said they were going to break the rules? Perhaps if you hired catholics only they would break the rules. Hire the best person available to harvest the most.

They are already breaking the rules Kid. I agree that it's important to hire based on merit, but if I'm a representative of the Catholic church, I want to hire people who love God and the Church, and who want to follow the regulations of the Catholic church, simply becuase they feel it is the right thing to do.

Why would I want to hire someone who hated the Catholic church, hated all she stood for, and wanted to tear her down? It's silly.

[Kidlicious]

They also crucified Christ

Is that what you call homosexual acts now? Or do you no longer realise that we were all sinners at one time.

, so I'm not sure exactly why sinners would like someone who openly challenges them for their sins.

You plant the seed and Jesus does the rest. I've had very good christian friends. I never led them away. They planted a seed in me and loved me.

[Asher]

Ben, a quick google search shows that the Arcus Foundation is a private organization that DISTRIBUTES grants. Even your quote indicates they are PRIVATE GRANTS

****ing hell, you coward. YOU ARE SO UNBELIEVABLY STUPID.

http://www.arcusfoundation.org/pages_2/home.cfm

[Ben Kenobi]

Is that what you call homosexual acts now? Or do you no longer realise that we were all sinners at one time.

I'm well aware of that. This is why I have a responsibility to stick to what Christ taught.

Homosexual acts are sinful.

You plant the seed and Jesus does the rest. I've had very good christian friends. I never led them away. They planted a seed in me and loved me.

As I am trying to do here. You forget I've not always been a Christian.

[Asher]

Oh, baloney. The Gay rights charities are explicitly lobbying to CHANGE the rules to favour them. Not a level playing field.

This is perhaps the second dumbest thing you've shat in this thread, WHICH IS TRULY AMAZING.

Gay rights groups asking for equal rights does not mean they're asking for favoritism. I guess you think black people were asking for favoritism also when they wanted the right to vote.

****ing bigot.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, a quick google search shows that the Arcus Foundation is a private organization that DISTRIBUTES grants. Even your quote indicates they are PRIVATE GRANTS

VAW is a public organisation and they have donated over 11 million dollars to Arcus.

Game set match.

Yes, I'm aware that Arcus is a private fund, but they recieved at least 11 million dollars of taxpayer funds in the last year.

It may be more, I will have to see. I'm not a forensic accountant and I have limited resources available to me.