Is the Catholic church a force for good in the world?

[Felch]

Because we're a bunch of retrograde misogynists?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't know the Catholic justification, but I've heard a couple of Protestant fundamentalists talk about the biblical proscription against women teaching (women are supposed to nurture, men are supposed to teach).

Of course, though, Catholics aren't really fundamentalists (The Pope has in the past allowed for evolution and whatnot, citing the Bible isn't necessarily literal).

[loinburger]

The "fundamentalist" Catholics tend to schism away into groups who still say the mass in Latin.

[ZEE]

morality doesn't exist.

[Felch]

Latin Mass is pretty cool. It's also short, because they don't get into all the hippy singing bull****.

[aneeshm]

That's up for debate. The church's sexual repression of the priests is generally given for a very probable cause for these abuses.

When a man is forbidden from sex, he'll find it in different ways. We all know about how prisons work. The same kind of stuff applies to priests, who have easy access to altar boys as well as a tremendous power over them. It's not at all shocking.

I've always thought this is a rather weak argument.

It's not as if the CC took random men off the street and forced celibacy upon them at gunpoint. Nor did they impose this rule arbitrarily - it's one which has been known for centuries. All these men chose to join the Church, knowing full well what that would entail. It is their moral failing, not the Church's.

The cause of these mens' crimes may well be the requirement of celibacy. That in no way makes the Church responsible for those crimes. Its crime would be the cover-up it attempted afterwards.

[Asher]

The argument that the men are celibate by choice and this somehow impacts the results of them having issues with it is demonstrably false.

The men had the best of intentions when they joined the church, I'm sure. It's the Church's unrealistic demands that can't be met by some, and they do act out.

The church's policies are a major factor in it (but not the only one), there's really no doubt about it. They're not RESPONSIBLE for it, especially not legally, but to deny it had any role because these men chose to be priests is pretty retarded.

[Felch]

The argument that the men are celibate by choice and this somehow impacts the results of them having issues with it is demonstrably false.

How do you demonstrate that it is false?

[Ben Kenobi]

I disagree with the requirement for clerical celibacy. It's a relic of a bygone era, when the concern was that nepotism would make the priesthood into a family business.

It's scriptural, read what St. Paul says about the priests being devoted to God. There is zero evidence that clerical celibacy is the cause of any of this, they have lower rates than married clergy wrt to sexual sins.

The solution is two-fold. One is to allow married men into the clergy. That would expand the ranks of potential priests and allow for stricter discipline.

Why? Married men have enough on their plate. I don't want a priest who can't serve without having to deal with their own family. Priests have way more things they have to do than a pastor.

The second part is to actually impose that discipline. Priests who are suspected of abuse should be withdrawn from public ministry. Stick them someplace where they won't have authority over anyone, and then thoroughly investigate the claims in cooperation with the authorities.

This I agree with. The discipline they have now is fine, it just has to be consistantly enforced.

[Asher]

How do you demonstrate that it is false?

Because clearly they don't adhere to their vows.

[Asher]

Ben, you want women to be barefoot and pregnant and out of the church, but times have changed.

Women are people too (who just happen to be lacking driving skills), it's time you and your ilk to wake up to that reality. Stop encouraging pregnancy and stop locking them up in your home. :q

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't know the Catholic justification, but I've heard a couple of Protestant fundamentalists talk about the biblical proscription against women teaching (women are supposed to nurture, men are supposed to teach).

They quote St. Paul who says that women shouldn't have teaching authority over men. There's a couple reasons for this. Men don't usually tend to listen to the woman in the first place, and secondly, how they choose to teach can cause problems. Denominations who have chosen to ordain women have pretty much left Christian teachings on morality for one reason over another, but they also see very few men attend.

[Asher]

The solution is not to fire all women public school teachers, Ben.

And speak for yourself when you say men don't value what women say.

It's no wonder you're a perpetual virgin.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, you want women to be barefoot and pregnant and out of the church, but times have changed.

Considering how women make the majority of churchgoers, yeah I can see how that flies. It's men who are walking out and leaving. Obviously the problem is that the Catholic church isn't welcoming enough to women. The answer is to get rid of the only position of prominence that men have in the church and then men will be more likely to come. Please.

Women are people too (who just happen to be lacking driving skills), it's time you and your ilk to wake up to that reality. Stop encouraging pregnancy and stop locking them up in your home. :q

I have an ilk? Cool. I like women, and I like women who go to church. I just don't like women as priests.

[Asher]

First of all, it's spelled "come", not "***", you perv.

Second of all, your admitted issues with women in authority positions is just another example of your bigoted stances. They've no basis in reality.