Is the Catholic church a force for good in the world?

[Felch]

No, obviously not.

The Church totally ****ed up the situation, and tried to cover up a crisis instead of dealing with it head on. If you want to accuse the Church of cowardice in dealing with the pedophilia, I'd agree with you. It treated the problem as a PR crisis instead of a moral failing within the hierarchy. It's common with large and established organizations to experience that sort of bureaucratic cowardice. Everybody is concerned with moving up the ranks and covering their asses, and it's unhealthy. The problem here is that the Church, unlike say Union Carbide, is trusted with children and expected to be a moral guardian.

It's unfair though to smear the efforts of good decent people by wiping them all with the brush of some pederast priests. It could be flipped around though. Every one of those altar boy buggering priests was evidently LGBT. Is it fair to say that LGBT and pedophilia are the same? Of course not.

[Asher]

"only" 81% of the Catholic sex abuse cases were males. And that's largely because it's a crime of opportunity for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

An overwhelming majority of the victims, 81 percent, were males. A majority of the victims were post-pubescent adolescents with a small percentage of the priests accused of abusing children who had not reached puberty.[15]
The John Jay Report determined that just under 6% of victims were 7 years of age or younger. 16% of the victims were between age 8 and age 10.[14]
Some sources have asserted that most of the victims were between the ages of 16 and 17, making the sexual abuse instances of hebephilia rather than pedophilia. These sources argue that, by failing to make this distinction, the media has fostered a misconception of the problem. The vast majority of the victims (78%) were between age 11 and age 17. Only 15 percent of the victims were 16 to 17 years of age; 51 percent were between the ages of 11 and 14.[14]

[SpencerH]

While I dont agree on every point, I very much like watching (and reading) Christopher Hitchens. I think it would be fascinating to see him face someone of equal intellectual and debating skill at some point. Alan Keyes might be a wonderful choice.

[Felch]

What's the point? The Church failed in its mission to protect the young. Whether they were boys or girls, it's irrelevant. The cause of the abuse was not the Church, nor was it the sexual orientation of the priests. It was the individual choices of the clergy, who chose to harm those children. It was the cowardice of the hierarchy that tried to hide the problem. None of it has anything to do with the good work that the Church carries out all around the world every single day.

My point was that blaming the Church for the abuse is as wrongheaded as blaming every gay person for the pedophilia, or blaming every Darwinist for the eugenics experiments of the early 20th century. Some people are good, some are bad, but it's your own personal bigotry that makes you blind to the good parts of the Church.

[Asher]

What's the point? The Church failed in its mission to protect the young. Whether they were boys or girls, it's irrelevant. The cause of the abuse was not the Church

That's up for debate. The church's sexual repression of the priests is generally given for a very probable cause for these abuses.

When a man is forbidden from sex, he'll find it in different ways. We all know about how prisons work. The same kind of stuff applies to priests, who have easy access to altar boys as well as a tremendous power over them. It's not at all shocking.

[MOBIUS]

Some might say it's preordained...

[loinburger]

Some might say it's preordained...

Why beat around the bush, just come right out and say it

[Felch]

I disagree with the requirement for clerical celibacy. It's a relic of a bygone era, when the concern was that nepotism would make the priesthood into a family business. Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests and few problem with inherited parishes. Celibacy doesn't cause child molestation though. I'd wager it has more to do with abuse of power, like how Roman Polanski raped that girl back in the 70s. He wasn't celibate, but he had power over her, and was willing to exploit it.

The solution is two-fold. One is to allow married men into the clergy. That would expand the ranks of potential priests and allow for stricter discipline. The second part is to actually impose that discipline. Priests who are suspected of abuse should be withdrawn from public ministry. Stick them someplace where they won't have authority over anyone, and then thoroughly investigate the claims in cooperation with the authorities.

[Asher]

Forced celibacy does cause sexual behaviour that is considered atypical and perhaps undesirable. Again, this is just a psychological fact and is proven time and time again in the real world where straight men get desperate and do things they'd never thought they'd do if they feel they have no alternative.

I'm not saying all celibate priests will do it, but it's a huge trigger. Combined with the abuse of power, and it's a situation ripe for abuse. Combine that once more with the type of vulnerable victims available to them: eager altar boys who look up to the priest and are very, very trusting of them.

I would be shocked there weren't more accusations if I wasn't certain there were more.

So yes, I believe very much that the Church's celibacy requirement is a major factor in these abuse scandals.

[Lorizael]

Forced celibacy does cause sexual behaviour that is considered atypical and perhaps undesirable. Again, this is just a psychological fact and is proven time and time again in the real world where straight men get desperate and do things they'd never thought they'd do if they feel they have no alternative.

Actually, studies have consistently shown that a little bit of alcohol is all that's required to get straight men to do things they never thought they'd do. Celibacy is not at all a requirement.

[Asher]

I have personally conducted those studies and completely agree. But that's a different topic.

If you're interested in starting a thread telling us about your sexual conquests of gerbils while inebriated, I encourage you to do so.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So Felch and Asher agree the celibacy requirement should be overturned (if I read Felch's posts correctly), just disagree on how much of the child molestation scandel is based on it. I think though that even Felch may agree that enforced celibacy had SOME cause for the child molestation, if not that majority cause.

Regardless, I think, based on the example of Eastern Orthodox and Protestant denominations married clergy do not diminished their love and devotion to God, but, may, in fact, strengthen it (as they can see how God loves them through the love their wife/husband has for them).

[Felch]

Celibacy made sense in the Middle Ages when the Church was the wealthiest landowner in Europe. It was a part of a series of reforms that were intended to professionalize the clergy and reduce the corruption that was rampant. Right now I think that it is unnecessary.

I think that enforced celibacy is a contributing factor to the molestation, but I don't think it's the only cause. I think it's a bit more complicated than "I've got to **** something, since I can't get married it might as well be a little boy." My guess is that people have sexual inclinations that are socially unacceptable. It's probable that gay Catholics from devout families feel a lot of pressure to start families and view the Church as a way to keep the parents happy without entering a loveless marriage. In a similar vein, it may be that young men who have truly dangerous sexual desires go into the priesthood to reform themselves, and wind up in positions of power over trusting children.

The fact is that I don't know what causes this behavior. We've got our assumptions, but facts are hard to come by.

[Imran Siddiqui]

In addition to celibacy, what's the deal with no females in the clergy? Seriously? How can this be defended anymore?

[loinburger]

I don't know the Catholic justification, but I've heard a couple of Protestant fundamentalists talk about the biblical proscription against women teaching (women are supposed to nurture, men are supposed to teach).