I really, really hate smokers

[Sprayber]

I've been interested to see how much people will actually pay for them. When I was in the military I would get numerous requests to buy for people while I was on base. I'm not sure if the Post Exchange still sells them for less or not.

[Asher]

Last year when the law went into effect the sports bar business dropped off so bad that they made an exception for sports bar and reinstated smoking until the superbowl was over. The casinos in Illinois have suffered greatly since the law changed and it has cost the state millions of dollars in lost revenue and they're trying to figure out some type of loophole to save themselves. So for all those non smokers that said it would not only not have a negative impact but a positive one, were of course proved to be full of **** (in Illinois at least. There's no accounting for all the weirdos in California ).
Not in Illinois. The Jury is still out on Resturant data since it varies from area to area but I'll admit that it has improved in SOME places, but it's not universal.

Activities that go along with smoking, like drinking, gambling, and bowling have been hurt quite hard. Attendence in sports bars, casinos and bowling alleys is off. And there is no doubt that it's attributed to the new smoking laws here.

I call bull****.

They banned that kind of stuff in bars here years ago. Everyone said it'd kill the bars. Afterwards we heard about how all these bars are closing.

Yet I know of none that have actually closed, and most of them are so ****ing busy all the time (especially during hockey games) that there's lineups to get in.

It's all drama, lies, and spin. to rah.

[snoopy369]

For Illinois it could be a matter of timing - the law came into effect not long before our recession/depression/****ty economy started, so you can't really separate the two causes easily. I don't doubt that they've been hurt hard - but are they being hurt hard because of the smoking ban or not, is hard to tell.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's not how employment law works, Ben. We don't say "You can make your employees dig coal from the ground twenty two hours a day with no gas masks, if you tell them that's what they'll be doing ahead of time", do we?

If they accept, what's the issue?

Employment law enforces standards on everyone, because if those standards weren't enforced it would be harmful to employees. You should not have to choose between your health and taking a job - and do not doubt that some would have to. Not being willing to work half of the restaurant would inevitably mean a decrease in employer flexibility, and you know they'd select for people who were willing to.

That's how the real world works Snoopy. I've never had a job where I was bound by the cumbersome 'rules' of employment standards. If I don't like the job, I don't take it. If the job is not good for my health, I quit and find a better job. If I want to work OT, I do. If I don't want to come in to work, I stay home.

My employer likes the fact that he has the flexibility to adjust my hours to what he needs, and hire me for the jobs that need to be done. In return, he recognises that certain things are important to me, and I'm willing to give up other things in order to get them.

I really don't see the need for employee standards. Minimum wage is meaningless to me. Health and benefits plan, I'd rather take care of that myself. Pension, etc.

The only reason for these standards are twofold.

1. Level the playing field. Folks who aren't willing to work hard get protected by the union rules against firing.

2. Lines the pocket of the lawyers who are involved, raises taxes and costs on the employer and makes the unions happy. I'd like you to name one benefit of employee standards that has helped me.

[snoopy369]

Ben, I suggest you go outside and take a look at the 'real world'. I think you'll find it works rather like I say it does.

Do you suggest we abolish all workplace health laws, overtime, etc.? Do you, really, want to go back to that world? This is the world of "The Jungle" and Oliver Twist and whatnot, mind you. Where children work sixteen hours a day in the coal mines, and people dying on the job was a daily occurrence.

I'd rather not, thanks.

[Asher]

snoopy: just ignore Ben please.

He thinks it's outrageous consensual adults can get married if they're of the same gender -- the state can interfere here to ensure they can't.

But worker health and wellbeing? Come on now, the government has more important things to do. We must remain vigilant about teh gays.

Ben is seriously crazy. I don't mean that as an insult. He's dyed-in-the-wool crazy. Ben is a couple traffic tickets and IRS audits away from being the next Ted Kaczynski.

[Boris Godunov]

BK, you've held every job you've had while living in countries that have large amounts of regulations concerning the exposure of employees to health risks. So to claim "I've never had a job where I was bound by the cumbersome 'rules' of employment standards" is laughable.

We had the Gilded Age already and the associated horrors to employees. Society said "No" to that a long time ago. Stop living in the 19th century.

[Cort Haus]

And the first western regime (I hesitate to use the word 'government') to obsess over the joys and virtues of 'smokenfrei' was ....

[Boris Godunov]

We should tear down the Autobahn, and disband Volkswagen!

One of the most blatant Godwinizations I've seen in a while...

[Cort Haus]

wd, BG, you've completely failed to spot the difference between advancing the forces of production and authoritarian state control over people's lives.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, I suggest you go outside and take a look at the 'real world'. I think you'll find it works rather like I say it does.

I used to work at a bookbinding job. Regular breaks, etc. I remember every single temp help that we brought in watched the clock and at 10:01 made sure to go on their break, etc.

The regulars would work through their break, eat lunch together go back and then finish off their shift.

Some days I'd work straight through. Some days I'd ask if I could get off early, etc. I understand why the rules were put there, but if intepreted strictly are an impediment to actually getting the job done.

Do you suggest we abolish all workplace health laws, overtime, etc.? Do you, really, want to go back to that world? This is the world of "The Jungle" and Oliver Twist and whatnot, mind you. Where children work sixteen hours a day in the coal mines, and people dying on the job was a daily occurrence.

That world has gone. Instead we have the world of the job bank. Someone should write a modern day Oliver Twist which would be an eye opener. Regulations that originally made sense 100 years ago are now antiquated.

The difference between then and now is scarcity of labour. I don't know anyone who works for minumums, even Mickey D's pays 10 bucks an hour.

[Ben Kenobi]

He thinks it's outrageous consensual adults can get married if they're of the same gender -- the state can interfere here to ensure they can't.

It makes about as much sense to me as having a 'recognised national bird' of Canada be a penguin.

I don't care if you choose to sleep with men, fine. But I don't see why you need government benefits.

Ben is seriously crazy. I don't mean that as an insult. He's dyed-in-the-wool crazy. Ben is a couple traffic tickets and IRS audits away from being the next Ted Kaczynski.

Don't get me started on taxes. I'm shocked people put up with losing half their income every year.

[Asher]

It makes about as much sense to me as having a 'recognised national bird' of Canada be a penguin.

I don't care if you choose to sleep with men, fine. But I don't see why you need government benefits.

While we're on the topic, I don't see why churches need government benefits or why straight marriages need government benefits.

[Ben Kenobi]

While we're on the topic, I don't see why churches need government benefits or why straight marriages need government benefits.

There's this little concept called a public good.

Churches and marriage do it better dollar for dollar then government programs.

[Boris Godunov]

wd, BG, you've completely failed to spot the difference between advancing the forces of production and authoritarian state control over people's lives.

No, you implied something was bad just because the Nazis favored it. I showed why that is dumb. Next.