Is there a religion an intelligent person can follow?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I thought Santa Claus was a modern reference to a Coke ad campaign who himself was a reference to a Turkish saint who died (Oddly enough in December) in 342 AD.

There are also very close references to the Norse God, Odin, who during the holiday of Yule (pagan Germanic winter festival, which is yes, were yule-tide comes from, another tradition stolen by modern Christianity) would lead a hunting party through the sky. Kids would put their boots out filled with carrots and sugar for Odin's flying horses and he'd repay their kindness with gifts.

[DinoDoc]

So that's where the idea of leaving out cookies came from!

[Imran Siddiqui]

A TON of the modern Christmas traditions we hold dear we can thank the Germans for.

[Ben Kenobi]

They do now. Or do you disagree that most Catholics don't have Christmas trees in their houses for the holidays?

Thanks to mass media in the industrial revolution and Queen Victoria.

I don't see what it has to do with the pagans.

And where do you think that came from? It's because the Christians were trying to convert the Germanic tribes and adopted their traditions. One of which was a big ass tree during the Solstice celebrations.

If good queen Anne had children or perhaps Bonnie Prince Charlie winning, it's unlikely they would ever have Christmas trees up.

I would argue that what the believers tend to embrace is what is part of the tradition. It isn't like the Catholic Church is telling these people that they should stop at once because of its pagan backgrounds, after all.

More likely it's because pagan traditions persist, not because they've been adopted by the Church. Germans have Christmas trees, because they've always had them, not because the Christian's co-opted trees. If that were true, then why don't we see Christmas trees in the mass?

He didn't just say the date of the holidays .

Again, it's a Jewish tradition. This is why the date of Easter is different based on different years. Dates are important, unless as you are saying, the dates are unimportant, so long as they are in the same season. The fact that Christianity lacks a 'harvest festival' and a summer festival, is only significant that they somehow happen to have them for spring and winter.

This is why I don't get the whole pagan -> christian conversion. Where's the summer and the fall festival?

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
A TON of the modern Christmas traditions we hold dear we can thank the Germans for.

Like excluding the Jews.

[Imran Siddiqui]

If that were true, then why don't we see Christmas trees in the mass?

You see it in the homes of the believers. Frankly, I consider that to be more important. What the mass of believers uphold as their traditions.

Dates are important

Apparently not so for Christmas.

[Ben Kenobi]

You see it in the homes of the believers. Frankly, I consider that to be more important. What the mass of believers uphold as their traditions.

We have many traditions. Probably our best one is cutting down and getting a fresh tree and putting that one up.

We've done it every year, including this one. Does it have anything to do with Catholicism? Not a whit. It's our family tradition and that is all.

I don't see how putting up a 3 foot artificial tree is at all similar to what we do.

Apparently not so for Christmas.

Why then does it not coincide with the Solistice? If the dates matter, why do they differ from what we know to be true?

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's our family tradition and that is all.

It is inexorably tied up in the Christian holiday. To act ignorant of its close relations with Christmas is just being silly. There is a reason that Christian groups get all angry when Christmas trees are removed from government property under disestablishment challenges. Hint, it's far more than its just their family tradition.

Why then does it not coincide with the Solistice? If the dates matter, why do they differ from what we know to be true?

In the Julian Calender, the Winter Solstice was the 25th. Furthermore, most scholars do not believe that was the actual birthday of Jesus.

Regardless, that wasn't the point and you know it. The point is that Easter is on the lunar calender and Christmas is, obviously, not. That isn't exactly consistent.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I thought Santa Claus was a modern reference to a Coke ad campaign who himself was a reference to a Turkish saint who died (Oddly enough in December) in 342 AD.

Saint Nicolas of Myra is actually celebrated in the Netherlands and Belgium (and a few other European countries but with less intensity) on the 6th of december. He brings presents for the children and let's his 'black' helper deliver them via the homes' chimneys. For some reason he arrives every year from his home base Spain

It's entirely secular, no religious connotation whatsoever now, except that Saint Nicolas, is ehm.. a saint.

[FrostyBoy]

Paganism Now there's something to follow!

Germans

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It's also been described as one where you can leave your faith at the door too.

Who said that ? Francisco Franco? Benito Mussolini?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I thought Santa Claus was a modern reference to a Coke ad campaign who himself was a reference to a Turkish saint who died (Oddly enough in December) in 342 AD.

It would be a mistake to refer to Saint Nicolas as Turkish. The area he lived in may now be Turkish, but at the time the area was inhabited by Greeks and was under Roman rule. At the time the Turks lived on the other side of the Caucasus Mountains.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is inexorably tied up in the Christian holiday. To act ignorant of its close relations with Christmas is just being silly. There is a reason that Christian groups get all angry when Christmas trees are removed from government property under disestablishment challenges. Hint, it's far more than its just their family tradition.

Actually, most of these folks are more angry about the lack of the use of Merry Christmas and the removal of nativity scenes from public places and businesses, then they are about the trees.

In the Julian Calender, the Winter Solstice was the 25th. Furthermore, most scholars do not believe that was the actual birthday of Jesus.

In the east where the Julian and not the Gregorian calendar is still in use, the date for Christmas is pushed back. Again, there are always distinct dates for the two.

As for his birthdate, I don't see any reason to debate his birthdate with folks who doubt that a person such as Christ existed.

Regardless, that wasn't the point and you know it. The point is that Easter is on the lunar calender and Christmas is, obviously, not. That isn't exactly consistent.

Thank you. That's all I was after. If both celebrations are lifted from paganism then you would expect them to be coherent with each other. That they are very different from one another is evidence that they were developed in a different fashion.

[Ben Kenobi]

Who said that ? Francisco Franco? Benito Mussolini?

Chesterson has some not so kind things to say about Anglicanism.

I was just trying to poke at your unsourced claim.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Classical Buddhism is what you want. No God, no crazy belief system, no attempt to explain the physical world at all. Just very, very sound instructions on how and why to live a righteous life.

Maybe Blake will show up and say more...