Is there a religion an intelligent person can follow?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Never said it was the same local pagan rituals. Never said it was a 100% pagan holiday either. As I've said, the Christian holidays are a mix of early Christian (or Judeo-Christian) celebration and local pagan rituals and symbolism, which were adopted (mostly) to try to convert the natives of those lands. (It appears that the first Christians didn't even really have celebrations for those holidays and it came afterwards, but I'd have to reference wikipedia and Ben has an irrational hatred for that site, but for not Ben's:

The first Christians, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, were certainly aware of the Hebrew calendar (Acts 2:1; 12:3; 20:6; 27:9; 1 Cor 16:7), but there is no direct evidence that they celebrated any specifically Christian annual festivals. The observance by Christians of non-Jewish annual festivals is believed by some to be an innovation postdating the Early Church. The ecclesiastical historian Socrates Scholasticus (b. 380) attributes the observance of Easter by the church to the perpetuation of its custom, "just as many other customs have been established," stating that neither Jesus nor his Apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter )

And, of course, the pagan rituals aren't anti-Christian or completely separate, because I've shown churches that have Easter egg hunts on their lawns and I'm sure we've all seen a Christmas tree at a church.

[Dauphin]

The point I'm getting at is that the pagan stuff is mere paraphernalia, and not the crux of the matter. If you forgive the pun.

[Ben Kenobi]

Never said it was the same local pagan rituals. Never said it was a 100% pagan holiday either. As I've said, the Christian holidays are a mix of early Christian (or Judeo-Christian) celebration and local pagan rituals and symbolism, which were adopted (mostly) to try to convert the natives of those lands.

Do you have a source for that other then Wikipedia? You keep saying it and I'm rather amused that you seem unshakeably certain that this was the case. That thesis has absolutely no origin prior to Gibbon who was the first to introduce it, and requires you to suspend belief that it took 17 centuries to get it right.

(It appears that the first Christians didn't even really have celebrations for those holidays and it came afterwards, but I'd have to reference wikipedia and Ben has an irrational hatred for that site, but for not Ben's:

I don't really care about wikipedia, but it's not a reliable source. The day I can quote wikipedia and get an A on my research paper is the day that I will consider it to be a reliable secondary source.

I doubt this will ever happen, because it's not stable. I cannot cite a page on wikipedia and expect it to be the same one that I read. It has nothing to do with 'irrationality'.

Do actually have a reliable source for your argument other then wikipedia?

[Dauphin]

The ecclesiastical historian Socrates Scholasticus (b. 380) attributes the observance of Easter by the church to the perpetuation of its custom, "just as many other customs have been established," stating that neither Jesus nor his Apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival.

How exactly would Jesus have wanted 'us' to celebrate Easter?

That question is not directed at anyone, it just seems a bit of an odd comment in there.

[Ben Kenobi]

You wanted autumn/harvest holidays, how the Hell do you expect me to find you one that's near the solstice?

Thank you, that was my entire point.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Riesstiu IV
Become a Jew! You get a free bag of Jew gold, Israeli citizenship, and a Christian infant you can sacrifice.

Not to mention you get in on all the good scams. Maddoff and all that.

[Dinner]

BTW Ben it's pretty much universally known that Jesus was not born on the winter solstice and instead the early church just tried to coopt the pagan winter solstice celebration and change its meaning from a pagan to a Christian one.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hell, I have religious friends who are far more knowledgable than you (it comes from being a former pastor and having gone to Yale Divinity School) who laughed when they heard someone was denying the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter. I don't think they pray at the alter of Gibbon.

Yale divinity school? They still teach about Christ?

Tell me some other things that your pastor friend taught you.

[Ben Kenobi]

BTW Ben it's pretty much universally known that Jesus was not born on the winter solstice and instead the early church just tried to coopt the pagan winter solstice celebration and change its meaning from a pagan to a Christian one.

What can you tell me about Epiphany?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Dauphin

The ecclesiastical historian Socrates Scholasticus (b. 380) attributes the observance of Easter by the church to the perpetuation of its custom, "just as many other customs have been established," stating that neither Jesus nor his Apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival.

How exactly would Jesus have wanted 'us' to celebrate Easter?

That question is not directed at anyone, it just seems a bit of an odd comment in there.

You did note "his Apostles", right?

I think Socrates Scholasticus put in "neither Jesus" because Easter is about the fact that Jesus showed up again . He could said, I'm them Messiah, celebrate this day if he really wanted to.

The point I'm getting at is that the pagan stuff is mere paraphernalia, and not the crux of the matter. If you forgive the pun.

But the "paraphernalia" was what was used to sell it and then became tied into it (only a few fundamentalist Christians object to Santa Claus or Easter egg hunts, though even few [though they do exist] refuse to celebrate the holidays due to the confluence with pagan ritual), hence the original comments of "consistency" and whatnot.

[Ben Kenobi]

Catholics are Fundies? News to me.

[Dauphin]

Consistency is out the window for lots of more glaringly obvious reasons, hence not what I was interested in addressing. The fact that stuff has been tacked on for political reasons, or adopted on a fun basis, doesn't change the central 'fact' theme. The church hasn't started saying that the Easter bunny was put on the cross, or that we should all pray to chocolate eggs.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Catholics?

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/activities/view.cfm?id=210

The fairytale of Santa Claus will not be abolished easily, despite the efforts of well-meaning people. Nor does it seem necessary. Children do like fairytales, and Santa Claus is one of the most charming of them. Catholic parents might use it without harm, provided they apply some safeguards to avoid an undue overstressing of the Santa Claus figure.

http://family.webshots.com/album/549366278SKSTtO

Easter Egg Hunt 2006 at Our Lady of Guadalupe Catholic Church in Long County

http://ourladyofwisdom.org/photos/album/72157600214961702/Easter-Egg-Hunt--April-8-2007.html

Easter Egg Hunt- April 8, 2007

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'll even add the Pope speaking about Christmas trees!

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31095

The Pope explained the Christian meaning of the Christmas tree to the delegation that donated the 108-foot-tall tree in St. Peter's Square.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Dauphin
Consistency is out the window for lots of more glaringly obvious reasons, hence not what I was interested in addressing. The fact that stuff has been tacked on for political reasons, or adopted on a fun basis, doesn't change the central 'fact' theme. The church hasn't started saying that the Easter bunny was put on the cross, or that we should all pray to chocolate eggs.

Though, for most of the laity, while Jesus's Birth and his Resurrection are the reasons for the celebration, the Christmas tree, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, and Easter egg hunts are important parts of the holiday, as much (if not more) than going to Church (then again, Ben may say they are anti-Christian or something).