Canada's coup d'etat: Opposition parties join to overthrow gov't (Part 2)

[Wezil]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Uhhh...once is precedent for once, with a promise to table a confidence motion. It is not precedent to ask for a rolling series of prorogues.

No, not for Harper to ask again. Of course.

I'm talking about future PMs that are facing defeat in a confidence vote. Why not ask the GG to prorogue parliament for a couple months to allow people to calm down? You and I were both talking about precedent for this for the same reason - it matters. If there wasn't precedent for it, there is now.

[KrazyHorse]

I'm talking about future PMs that are facing defeat in a confidence vote. Why not ask the GG to prorogue parliament for a couple months to allow people to calm down?

Indeed. Why not?

[Wezil]

Are you serious?

It would allow any government facing defeat to stave it off simply by visiting the GG. During the period of prorogation the government at dissolution is still the government (even though their powers are curtailed). This would mean governments without the confidence of parliament would/could be frequent.

There is a reason there is no precedent for this.

[KrazyHorse]

It would allow any government facing defeat to stave it off simply by visiting the GG.

Yes, and?

This would mean governments without the confidence of parliament would/could be frequent.

So? Every time the government falls due to a confidence motion and Parliament is dissolved we have a government without the confidence of the Commons.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

It would allow any government facing defeat to stave it off simply by visiting the GG.

Yes, and?

It is clearly against the principles of parliamentary democracy. A government only governs with the confidence of parliament. To close the building down to prevent their will from being expressed is the problem. This isn't the same as trying to use House Rules to avoid a particular vote at a particular time. This is avoiding House Rules altogether by dissolving the House. A certain French monarch comes to mind.

This would mean governments without the confidence of parliament would/could be frequent.

So? Every time the government falls due to a confidence motion and Parliament is dissolved we have a government without the confidence of the Commons.

Can you think of any other way for the routine business of government to be done during an election? It is necessary in that case and the nominal government is actually seeking a mandate at the polls.

In this case it is not a necessary prorogation (unless you support the current government of course ) and the government is not going to the polls.

[Ben Kenobi]

How is it against the principles of parliament?

Parliament is only required to sit once a year.

They have already met once, and Harper has promised that the session will start after the Christmas break.

I really don't see the issues with this. If the issue was giving the elected government a chance to get some serious work done, then the coalition wouldn't be trying this garbage to try to dump the government as soon as it got in.

[Wezil]

Cite a precedent Ben.

I don't think there is a Canadian one but I would be interested to know if a Commonwealth example exists as well. There have been plenty of minority governments under fire. What ones have used prorogation to avoid a confidence vote?

[Ben Kenobi]

"singing songs about swearing seals?"

That's an awesome parody.

Especially the part about Justin Trudeau being the saviour of the Liberals.

[Ben Kenobi]

Cite a precedent Ben.

That's not what you said. You said it violated the rules of parliament here in Canada.

All the rules say is that Parliament must meet once a year.

It's up to you to demonstrate that this is a violation of parliamentary procedure.

I've never seen a tripartite coalition try to take control here in Canada, it's without precedent. So your argument that just because it's never been done cuts both ways.

I don't think there is a Canadian one but I would be interested to know if a Commonwealth example exists as well. There have been plenty of minority governments under fire. What ones have used prorogation to avoid a confidence vote?

How many have been challenged by a coalition of 3 parties, of whom the leader does not even have the confidence of his own party, let alone parliament.

Prorogation is not my preference, but it is certainly permissible. I would rather see Harper take the coalition out to the woodshed now.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


That's not what you said. You said it violated the rules of parliament here in Canada.

I said "principles". Primary of those being that the government must have the confidence of parliament. This government only has that because they have canceled the session in the the face of a call for a vote of confidence.

All the rules say is that Parliament must meet once a year.

I'm not getting into this silliness.

It's up to you to demonstrate that this is a violation of parliamentary procedure.

It's not a violation of procedure in that the PM asked the GG for a prorogation. It is a troubling precedent that it would be granted.

I've never seen a tripartite coalition try to take control here in Canada, it's without precedent. So your argument that just because it's never been done cuts both ways.

Why not save that discussion to if and when that actually happens? I said much earlier the GG may have two tough calls to make. She has just made the first one. That is what I'm attempting to discuss.

Prorogation is not my preference, but it is certainly permissible.

Are you arguing it is okay for a PM to avoid a confidence vote by any means and still maintain legitimacy?

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
NYE makes an excellent point.

How can the Liberals push Dion as PM when he isn't even fit to be the leader of their party?

Chrétien remained PM quite a bit after he had announced he'd be leaving.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


Chrétien remained PM quite a bit after he had announced he'd be leaving.

Was he made Prime Minister after he announced he'd be leaving, or was he already Prime Minister? Can your brain comprehend the difference or do you need a lecture?

[Ben Kenobi]

I said "principles". Primary of those being that the government must have the confidence of parliament. This government only has that because they have canceled the session in the the face of a call for a vote of confidence.

Which is perfectly permissible.

I'm not getting into this silliness.

Obviously, you have nothing to counter that argument. Thank you for conceding the point.

It's not a violation of procedure in that the PM asked the GG for a prorogation. It is a troubling precedent that it would be granted.

I think this three or four headed coalition is an awfully troubling precedent. Man it's a fearsome foursome.

Are you arguing it is okay for a PM to avoid a confidence vote by any means and still maintain legitimacy?

1. I don't think asking the GG for prorogation is a bad thing, nor does it qualify, 'by any means'.

Harper is the legitimate prime minister. He won the election fair and square. He has only delayed the confidence vote, not denied the vote.

Now, why don't we give him a chance to act on his mandate, which he has earned?

[Asher]

Meanwhile, back in the real world...

The numbers keep getting worse for the coalition. How bad will they be come Jan 26th?

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=1032813

Political power struggle scaring Canadians: Poll
Norma Greenaway, Canwest News Service
Published: Thursday, December 04, 2008

OTTAWA - Almost three-quarters of Canadians say they are "truly scared" for the future of the country and a solid majority say they would prefer another election to having the minority Conservative government replaced by a coalition led by Stephane Dion, a new Ipsos-Reid poll says.

The poll also indicates Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservatives would romp to a majority victory with a record 46 per cent public support if an election were held today.

The survey suggests Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean was in tune with public opinion across the country when she agreed Thursday to suspend, or prorogue Parliament until Jan. 26 at the request of Harper. Almost seven in 10 of those surveyed Tuesday and Wednesday gave prorogation a thumbs up.

The Tories also were deemed by almost six in 10 Canadians to be the best managers of the economy in these troubling times.

Results of the wide-ranging survey, conducted exclusively for Canwest News Service and Global National, paint a picture of a population gripped by fear that is largely giving the Conservatives the benefit of the doubt - for now - to lead the country in such uncertain political and economic times.

"Overall, this is breaking quite clearly to the government as opposed to the coalition," said pollster Darrell Bricker.

Fully 60 per cent of those interviewed said they opposed replacing the government with Liberal-NDP coalition supported by the Bloc Quebecois, compared with 37 per cent who favoured the idea. Support for the coalition was highest in Quebec at 50 per cent, followed by 44 per cent in Atlantic Canada.

The poll indicates the prospect of the Dion-led coalition has prompted Canadians to rethink the value of an election so soon after the Oct. 14 poll. Fifty-six per cent said they would rather go to the polls than be governed by the coalition.

Bricker said the preference for an election, if the view holds in the coming weeks, will be an important consideration for Jean should the opposition topple Harper's government early in the new year.

"The Governor General is going to be hard-pressed to deny what the Canadian public wants," said Bricker, president of Ipsos Reid.

Bricker said a clear consensus appears to be building in Canada, albeit to a lesser degree in Quebec, that Harper is doing the right thing by trying to hang on to power.

"The idea of having Stephane Dion as the prime minister, combined with the coalition being supported by the Bloc Quebecois, is basically fatal in the minds of the public," Bricker said.

"They want to clear the air with an election as opposed to just handing power over to the coalition. They don't like the fact they haven't been asked their opinion directly of what's being proposed by the coalition."

Bricker said Canadians' unhappiness with the political upheaval now is trumping the question of who is to blame for the crisis. Those surveyed divided almost evenly between blaming the government and the opposition parties.

The poll says more than seven in 10 Canadians, or 72 per cent of those surveyed, said they are "truly scared" for the future of the country because of what is going on in Ottawa.

The fear touches every region and demographic in the country. The rate was highest in Alberta at 90 per cent, and lowest in Quebec at 62 per cent.

Bricker said the Conservatives' spike in popularity appears to reflect a backlash against the Liberals and New Democrats whose support slid to 23 per cent and 13 per cent respectively. The Greens had eight per cent support, while the Bloc polled 37 per cent in Quebec.

Ironically, Bricker said, the prospect of a coalition government involving the Liberals, New Democrats and Bloc Quebecois may end up allowing Harper to get the majority government he wasn't able to get on his own on Oct. 14.

The survey involved telephone interviews with 1,001 adults. In a sampling of that size, the results are considered accurate to within 3.1 percentage points.

[Asher]

And Dion is taking it from both sides: the public and his own MPs.

It's looking more and more likely this is not going to survive the Jan 26th date.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=1033094

Dion’s video 'disaster' won’t derail coalition, say leaders
Juliet O’Neill and Mike De Souza, Canwest News Service
Published: Thursday, December 04, 2008

OTTAWA - Senior Liberals vowed Thursday to keep their coalition with the New Democratic Party and accord with the Bloc Quebecois alive despite embarrassment about Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's address to the nation the night before.

Scarborough Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis called for Dion's head because of an out-of-focus amateur-looking video of his address to the nation that was delivered too late for one of the TV networks to broadcast after Prime Minister Stephen Harper's address on Wednesday night.

"It was a disaster last night," Karygiannis told reporters.

But senior Liberals Bob Rae, Michael Ignatieff, and Bryon Wilfert said it was Harper's leadership that should be under the gun. And New Democrats dismissed the shaky public start to Dion's coalition leadership as unfortunate.

Dion, who decided to step down from the Liberal leadership this May after the Liberals suffered big losses in the Oct. 14 election campaign, could have been prime minister as early as next week if the coalition plan to defeat the minority Conservative government had not been thwarted for now by a suspension of Parliament Thursday.

Many MPs and officials in all parties cringed in embarrassment and disappointment over the poor quality video. Dion made light of it, saying he was told he sounded good on radio.

Rae and Ignatieff, two rivals to succeed Dion as leader, testified their support for the coalition process and indicated there is no move underway to replace Dion before the May 2 Liberal leadership convention in Vancouver.

"The questions of leadership are not of the hour," said Ignatieff, a Toronto MP. "We have a leader. His name is Stephane Dion."

Ignatieff expressed fulsome support for the coalition for the first time following a string of reports that he did not embrace the process and wanted no part in a coalition cabinet. He said Karygiannis's comments were unworthy and that the caucus was united in opposing the government.

He referred to the coalition as "a very credible weapon of dissuasion" and said "this caucus is as one in maintaining the credibility of that dissuasive instrument."

Rae, a Toronto MP and former NDP premier of Ontario, said the leader who should be under public scrutiny is Harper.

"This is a man who's afraid to show up for work," he said, referring to Harper's successful bid to avoid defeat Monday by convincing Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean to shut Parliament down.

NDP deputy leader Thomas Mulcair said he was disappointed about the technical problems that plagued Dion's video statement, but said it didn't take away from the coalition's resolve to change the government.

"We've got three political parties representing a clear majority in Parliament that want to get together, put aside their individual and collective differences and work on one thing: The Canadian economy and the interests of all Canadians," said Mulcair. "It's the first time in many years that we're going to have a guarantee of two consecutive budget cycles where things are going to get through."

Dion says the coalition position has not changed following the Governor General's decision.

"Nothing has changed for us except that we will not have a vote on Monday," Dion said.