Canada's coup d'etat: Opposition parties join to overthrow gov't (Part 2)

[KrazyHorse]

You want a radical change in our constitution in order to avoid a fairly short-lived Dion government.

No, you are not on the side of the angels. I don't want a Dion government either. But it is not worth the expense of trashing our constitution, granting what is already an overpowerful office even more power with who knows what effects down the road.

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
a) Then the Canadian public will have been democratically deceived. I thought you were all in favour of democracy

I am, I'm just saying that's the inevitable result and why Dion is the fall guy here. He'll grab the power using methods Canada loathes, then wipe his hands and vanish so the rest of the Liberals can take his power and run with it and convince Canadians they're warm and fuzzy.

b) Mr Ignatieff will presumably be forced to vote with these motions if he wants any chance of winning the nomination of the Liberals. It will be a mite uncomfortable for him to explain why he voted for it when he didn't want to do it

Toeing the party line has never hurt anyone.

edit: 12/4/08, Asher: Fix spelling error which broke the KrazyHorse parsing engine

[KrazyHorse]

Toeing. Toeing toeing toeing.

[Asher]

Toeing. Thanks.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Personally, I think Harper should take this like a man. Table a confidence motion tomorrow. When defeated, walk into the Governor General's house and request a dissolution of Parliament. When denied this, walk directly outside and give a thunder and lightning resignation speech. Promise to sit in opposition and hold Mr. Dion's feet to the fire, and place himself on the side of the electorate, saying "don't worry: we'll have our day soon enough". Hammer Dion EVERY DAY for using "trickery" to subvert the will of the electorate.

I agree with this.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You want a radical change in our constitution in order to avoid a fairly short-lived Dion government.

No, you are not on the side of the angels. I don't want a Dion government either. But it is not worth the expense of trashing our constitution, granting what is already an overpowerful office even more power with who knows what effects down the road.

No. I want an election.

You just said he should ask for one.

Where we may differ is in what the GG should do about it. I believe she should, and will, grant the wish.

[notyoueither]

Incidentaly, appealing to the Palace is in no way a radical change to our constitution.

Elizabeth is the Queen of Canada, in title and in law.

Just thought I would throw that in here to short curcuit any touchy-feely moments.

[RedFred]

I am angry. Very angry. Governments fall. Coalitions happen. BUT NOT WITH A PARTY TRYING TO BREAK UP THE COUNTRY.

Okay. I take it back about the Greens. May is an idiot. Harper is an idiot too. Layton is an idiot. Dion wins the king idiot award.

As for Duceppe, what the HECK is a separatist party doing getting ready to partially assume the reins of government?

What about respecting the oath of office MPs take? There was a time they would just shoot every member of the Bloc for treason and be done with it.

With the biggest bounce since the Great Depression on its way this is REALLY not a good time for political absurdity. Hopefully the process is in place to get rid of Dion. Layton and Harper should step down too. Maybe when all three leaders are replaced there will be a little more in the way of common sense on Parliement Hill.

I've vented... but I still do not feel one iota happier about this mess.

[KrazyHorse]

I think Harper should ask for one. Pro forma. I don't think he should get one. Granting one right now would be radical. It would defy, as I've pointed out so many times before, many decades of precedents in Canada and centuries of precedents in the UK.

Granting Harper's request would make the ability of the Commons to withdraw confidence in a PM an act of suicide. PMs come and go. Commons remains until Commons is ungovernable, Commons decides to dissolve or 5 years is up. Whichever comes first.

[Asher]

Which of these statements comes closest to your own view?
The Conservative party deserves to continue in government: 35%
The Conservative party does not deserve to continue in government: 40%
Not sure: 25%

Should the opposition parties get together and topple the Conservative minority government headed by Stephen Harper?
Yes: 36%
No: 41%
Not sure: 23%

If the Conservative minority government is defeated, what would be your preferred solution?
Holding a new federal election: 32%
Allowing the opposition to form a coalition government: 37%
Allowing the opposition to govern by accord: 7%
Not sure: 24%

[KrazyHorse]

In other words, the electorate has no specific thoughts on what should happen now. Not that it would matter overmuch if it did.

[Asher]

The PDF is what has the specific data on leadership (eg, the Dion @ 25% results).

I'm working on acquiring it from my sources. :jamesbond:

[Asher]

My source puts out.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I think Harper should ask for one. Pro forma. I don't think he should get one. Granting one right now would be radical. It would defy, as I've pointed out so many times before, many decades of precedents in Canada and centuries of precedents in the UK.

No. It really wouldn't.

I invite you to go looking for those precedents. Have a closer look at the names and places Boris posted earlier.

Granting Harper's request would make the ability of the Commons to withdraw confidence in a PM an act of suicide. PMs come and go. Commons remains until Commons is ungovernable, Commons decides to dissolve or 5 years is up. Whichever comes first.

No. It makes it an act that leads to an election.

Elections are good things, are they not? I would argue they are necessary when Parliament comes to a radical moment. Even Mulroney relented and we had an election over free trade. Surely seperatists gaining the confidence of the government warrants an election if trade with our closest neighbour does.

Finally, as Asher has tried many times to point out, it's a $300 million stimulus. Isn't stimulus what this is all about?

[Asher]

Only one-in-four Canadians (25%) admit that they would be comfortable with Liberal leader Stéphane
Dion becoming Canada's Prime Minister, while almost two-thirds of respondents (64%) are uncomfortable
with this notion.

In Canada’s most populous provinces—Quebec and Ontario—three-in-five respondents (60%) are not at
ease with the idea of Dion at 24 Sussex.

A majority of respondents (57%) are worried about the Bloc Québécois becoming involved in the federal
government, while three-in-ten (30%) disagree.

Almost half of Quebecers (57%) see no problems with the sovereignist party's participation in a coalition,
but large majorities in Alberta (82%), Manitoba and Saskatchewan (74%) and British Columbia (66%) are
concerned.

One of the issues that brought about the formation of the opposition coalition—the plan to scrap public
financing system for political parties—appears to resonate with Canadians. Almost half of respondents
(48%) say they would switch to a system where political parties did all of their fundraising on their own,
while one-third (34%) endorse the continuation of the existing public financing system.

BC (48%) and Atlantic Canada (41%) are particularly supportive of the current system, while Albertans
(71%) clearly dislike it.

It's interesting that the one issue that set off this whole thing, Harper's plan is more in touch with the electorate than all of the opposition parties, which threw tantrums and got us into this mess.