My Stupid State, part eleventy-seven

[Felch]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
The thing that is most problematic for her is the idea, in her view, that Catholics are intolerant and exclusive and refuse to let non-Catholics take communion.

I think she was raised Presbyterian but currently goes to a Disciples of Christ church that has open communion(the one just around the corner, Dan). Her church is very progressive and tolerant and has an openly gay minister, so she feels very put out by Catholics.

So do you guys have tips for what to say to her to calm her fears/concerns about us Catholics? I'm not trying to convert her or anything, just trying to get her to understand and think we're all ok.

I'd say that the Church has its rules, and some things are for members only. However, these rules exist in order to preserve the sanctity of what's going on, not to make life miserable for outsiders. Something along those lines. Would she object to a fraternity having a secret handshake?

As far as openly gay ministers go, we've got plenty of flamboyant priests. Some of them a bit too open.

The most important thing to do is show her that you're a good reasonable guy. That alleviates more fears than anything you could say.

Also... when I was looking something up about communion in the Catholic church I found that if you don't believe the wafer is literally the body of Christ you aren't allowed to receive it. I'm a good cafeteria Catholic and think it is just symbolic. (i.e. Jesus understood metaphors better than the Church does). I saw on some website that even though I'm confirmed, have attended mass all my life, etc, I can't receive communion now either.

Thoughts?

Technically, it's true that you're not supposed to receive communion, but nobody is going to quiz you on what you believe before giving it to you. So if it doesn't bother you, then I'd recommend not making a big deal. I know a lot of Catholics who don't even realize that it's supposed to be the corpus christi. I personally don't think it matters a whole lot. The only thing you have to do is be respectful.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Also... when I was looking something up about communion in the Catholic church I found that if you don't believe the wafer is literally the body of Christ you aren't allowed to receive it. I'm a good cafeteria Catholic and think it is just symbolic. (i.e. Jesus understood metaphors better than the Church does). I saw on some website that even though I'm confirmed, have attended mass all my life, etc, I can't receive communion now either.

Thoughts?

I think it's up to you, personally, so long as you don't make a big deal of your opinions on the matter to others who will likely care. If you think that you are a 'good catholic' in whatever sense that word has meaning to you - then go ahead... I don't think I ever believed in transubstantiation myself; I didn't understand it well enough to believe in it, for most of my Catholic life, and not long after understanding it, lapsed. Frankly, most Catholics don't understand it one bit anyhow...

As long as you keep your religious beliefs to yourself, and behave appropriately to the church's requirements, I don't think it matters what you think. Just don't go preaching your thoughts to others who don't want to hear it ...

[Ben Kenobi]

btw, for Ben, Dan, Felch, etc I've got some communion related questions for y'all. I'm Catholic and am dating a Protestant girl who is rather suspicious about us crazy Papists.

I'll be honest. It ain't gonna work out. I used to be a Prot, but I had sympathy for the Catholic perspective, thought Pope John Paul was a wonderful man, etc. I dated one Catholic girl in particular, and I was put off by the attitude of Catholics on a few issues.

What changed for me is understanding the whys and wherefores. Actually talking to Catholics about what they believe rather then my own assumptions was the most conducive thing.

The thing that is most problematic for her is the idea, in her view, that Catholics are intolerant and exclusive and refuse to let non-Catholics take communion.

Then you need to step up to the plate and explain why. It has nothing to do with intolerance, but everything to do with the Real Presence. We don't let anybody else take it because they haven't made a promise that they believe in the Real Presence. It's not her fault for being ignorant about the church, which is why you have to teach her otherwise.

I think she was raised Presbyterian but currently goes to a Disciples of Christ church that has open communion(the one just around the corner, Dan). Her church is very progressive and tolerant and has an openly gay minister, so she feels very put out by Catholics.

Again, it ain't gonna work Ozzy. It sounds to me that she would find any actual Catholicism to be offensive.

So do you guys have tips for what to say to her to calm her fears/concerns about us Catholics?

From what you've said it sounds like she's a lost cause. If she finds you hard to tolerate and you haven't said much at all, then I'm not sure she would ever be willing to have her heart less hard. She has to be willing to respect Catholicism for what it is before she can make any progress whatsoever.

I would suggest the best thing is your faith. Don't try to convert her, don't bring it up. Just do the best you can to live yours. Let her see that Christ is working in you. If she's interested she'll bite. If she's not then she will go her own way.

Also... when I was looking something up about communion in the Catholic church I found that if you don't believe the wafer is literally the body of Christ you aren't allowed to receive it. I'm a good cafeteria Catholic and think it is just symbolic. (i.e. Jesus understood metaphors better than the Church does).

Why would you believe it's symbolic? He says my flesh is true flesh and my body is true blood.

I saw on some website that even though I'm confirmed, have attended mass all my life, etc, I can't receive communion now either.

Sure you can, by coming back to what the church believes. It's your own decision that keeps you out. Rather then being with a gal who seems to be corrosive to your own faith, I think you need to work on it and come back into communion. Not being able to take communion is a very serious sign that you are in trouble and need help. It's not intended to be a long term situation, but a warning.

[Ben Kenobi]

Just so we're clear: you believe that taking the wafer that was offered to him and then being naughty with it, is directly equivalent to vandalising other peoples' property in the commision of a hate-crime.

It's quite a bit more then that. Catholics believe that after the priest has consecrated, that this is Christ himself. So basically you are committing sacrilege against God and abusing him in our eyes.

Think that one through before replying. To be honest, I think your very comparison is as offensive to Jews

A synagogue is a holy place for sure. But Jews do not see a synagogue as God. According to Catholics, the communion wafer after consecration is God, and ought to be treated with the same respect.

I don't see how I'm being insulting at all. It's a strong statement, but it conveys the truth of why this issue is so serious to Catholics.

(the Holocaust: about as bad as a misused wafer) as the very taking of the wafer itself- but don't worry, I won't be campaigning for your expulsion.

I think both are hate crimes. The difference is that one abuses a holy place the other abuses God himself.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'll be honest. It ain't gonna work out.

Yep, so the solution is both of you should become theists or agnostics (at best).

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It's quite a bit more then that. Catholics believe that after the priest has consecrated, that this is Christ himself. So basically you are committing sacrilege against God and abusing him in our eyes.

I'm sure. However, as much as you may wish it to be, this is not a crime- unlike vandalising property with swastikas. University administration does not exist to keep you free from being offended by their students outside of school.

I think both are hate crimes. The difference is that one abuses a holy place the other abuses God himself.

You believe there should be legal penalties for blasphemy? Why not let God take care of Himself, I'm sure he can give the offender all the spiritual punishment he deserves without you sticking your nose in.

I can almost see the South Park episode now, Zombie Jesus seeks to reclaim his stolen flesh!

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm sure. However, as much as you may wish it to be, this is not a crime- unlike vandalising property with swastikas.

Disrupting a mass? Yes, it is a crime. Same as with any public disturbance.

University administration does not exist to keep you free from being offended by their students outside of school.

He can say all he wants about how the Catholic church sucks. I honestly don't care. He has an obligation if he chooses to attend a mass to respect the other worshipers. No one forced him to go.

You believe there should be legal penalties for blasphemy?

I believe the penalties for disrupting the mass should be the same as for disrupting a sabbath. It already is a crime. I'm asking for it to be enforced in this case, so that he gets the message that it's not ok to walk in and steal the host.

Why not let God take care of Himself, I'm sure he can give the offender all the spiritual punishment he deserves without you sticking your nose in.

I don't see why this is such an issue. He disrupted the mass. He should have been arrested for doing so. There are already laws on the books that prevent you from doing so.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Che indicates that he went through this process specifically tailored to make sure he knew all this (he even kept the stuff).

What part of, I was Episcopalian did you not understand?

[chequita guevara]

In any event, Catholics going insane and getting violent over magic cracker desecration isn't new. In fact, they've been murdering Jews because of it for almost a millennium!

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php

Declare something cheap, disposable, and common to be imbued with magic by the words of a priest, and the trivial becomes a powerful token to inflame the mob — why, all you have to do is declare a bit of bread to be the most powerful and desirable object in the world, and even if it isn't, you can pretend that the evil other is scheming to deprive the faithful of it. Now you could invent stories of Jews and witches taking the communion host to torture, to make Jesus suffer even more, and good Catholics would of course rise in horror to defend their salvation. . . .

The first recorded accusation was made in 1243 at Berlitz, near Berlin. As a consequence all the Jews of Berlitz were burned on the spot, which was subsequently called Judenberg. Another famous case that took place in 1290, in Paris, was commemorated in the Church of the Rue des Billettes and in a local confraternity. In 1370 in Brussels, the charge of host desecration, long celebrated in a special fest and depicted in artistic relics in the Church of St. Gudule, led to the extermination of the Jews of the city. The case of 1337, at Deggendorf, still celebrated locally as "Deggendorf Gnad", led to a series of massacres across the region. In 1510, at Knoblauch, near Berlin, 38 Jews were executed and more expelled from Brandenburg. The alleged host desecration in 1410, at Segovia, was said to have brought about an earthquake, and as a result, the local synagogue was confiscated and leading Jews were executed; the event continues to be celebrated as a local feast of Corpus Christi. Similar accusations, resulting in extensive persecution of Jews, were brought forward in 1294, at Laa, Austria; 1298, at Röttingen, near Würzburg, and at Korneuburg, near Vienna; 1299, at Ratisbon; 1306, at St. Pölten; 1325, at Cracow; 1330, at Güstrow; 1338, at Pulkau; 1388, at Prague; 1399, at Posen; 1401, at Glogau; 1420, at Ems; 1453, at Breslau; 1478, at Passau; 1492, at Sternberg, in Mecklenburg-Schwerin; 1514, at Mittelberg, in Alsace; 1558, at Sochaczew, in Poland. The last Jew burned for stealing a host died in 1631, according to Jacques Basnage, quoting from Manasseh b. Israel. Casimir IV. of Poland (1447).

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'll be honest. It ain't gonna work out.

**** off and die, ass-hole. I've known plenty of mixed-Catholic marriages to work. My grandparents, my parents (though they eventually split up after twenty years, but not because of religion). Many of my teachers and friends. Oh, wait, me and my wife (thought to be fair, she's a recovering Catholic and we're both atheists now, but you know the Church, once Catholic, always a Catholic in their eyes).

So how about not dispensing relationship advice when you've got no real experience in them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Disrupting a mass? Yes, it is a crime. Same as with any public disturbance.

Is it a felony?

I don't remember expulsion for misdemenors on campus... otherwise plenty of people I knew who were busted for things like urinating in public would have kicked out in droves.

[OzzyKP]

Yea, I really don't think religion is going to come between us. And I'm not going to break something off because of religion anyhow. We really aren't that far apart. Honestly, the fact that I was able to find someone in DC who actually attends church every week is novel itself. So no, I'm not breaking it off.

And she isn't corrosive to my faith, I haven't really believed in transubstantiation for years. The only thing that has changed is I've now seen that is a requirement for taking communion. I'm open to being convinced, but I don't see much reason to believe the host & wine are literally the body & blood of Christ. They represent him, and as he said at the last supper, we take communion to remember him.

But a gesture to remember him and his sacrifice is different than literally eating God. Which doesn't seem to follow from the text nor make much sense.

[chequita guevara]

Evile Jewes Desecrating teh Lord!

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Nah, I heard Jesus was black

Damn, beat me to it!

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
But a gesture to remember him and his sacrifice is different than literally eating God. Which doesn't seem to follow from the text nor make much sense.

Then you are a bad Catholic. BK, while being a complete and total @ss, is actually following Church doctrine, as set down by the Lateran Council of 1215, which declared the host to be the literal body of Christ. It also declared Jews to be evil.