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Study: Gays in the military will not undermine effectiveness

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  • #61
    Wiglaf and Ben Kenobi: Have either of you ever served in the military and made the sacrifices that are neccessary for the military service?
    I don't have a choice. I don't meet the military's requirements wrt to enlistment, due to disability.

    This is why I really don't believe the military should become a social experiment, and why inclusivity takes a back seat to effectiveness. If we are to take Asher's argument to it's logical conclusion, the military should accept anyone who wants to serve, so they don't have their feelings hurt.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
      This is why I really don't believe the military should become a social experiment, and why inclusivity takes a back seat to effectiveness. If we are to take Asher's argument to it's logical conclusion, the military should accept anyone who wants to serve, so they don't have their feelings hurt.
      That doesn't logically match my argument at all.

      My argument that anyone who is physically and mentally able to serve (your mental disability precludes you...) should be able to.
      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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      • #63
        How does the Gay lower someone's service and/or dedication to their country?
        When being 'out' takes priority to their service, then yes, they are showing where their priorities lie. I honestly believe it shouldn't make a difference, but some gay people choose to make it an issue, and that I feel is contrary to what the military is about. The military isn't about fitting themselves to me, but me to them, and it should stay that way.

        To be fair, the Canadian tax base, its social priorities, and its social programs prohibit them spending enough on their military to form a truly blue-water navy. Add to that the question, why should Canada engage militarily overseas for any reason outside of peacekeeping operations? Should Canada be a policeman to the world?
        I'm not talking about a true blue water Navy, I am looking more at deployment around the world. Right now we need to hitch rides with the Americans to go anywheres, and there is no need for that. Canadians should be able to fly anywhere in the world on short notice, it would also assist our deployment here in Canada, given the size of the country, and the difficulty in reaching other areas.

        The fact that our military has been severely neglected is a problem for our sovereignty, as we cannot assert our claims to other nations.
        Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
        "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
        2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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        • #64
          That doesn't logically match my argument at all.
          Sure it does.

          My argument that anyone who is physically and mentally able to serve (your mental disability precludes you...) should be able to.
          You said nothing about ability, and everything about not hurting other people's feelings. Why are you changing your argument now?

          I'm sorry Asher, if inclusiveness is the most important thing, then the military cannot exclude those with disabilities.
          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

          Comment

          • #65
            Originally posted by Wiglaf
            If I called HIV nature's birth control virus, I have a feeling you'd get all whiney.
            Whiny? Hardly.

            Oh and since you brought it up ... The HIV virus does not discriminate. It kills on both sides of the fence.

            HIV is a sexually transmitted disease, just like all of the other sexually transmitted diseases; so go ahead and pursue and conquer as many women as you can Wiglaf. Who knows, the more conquests you place under your belt, the more masculine you might feel about yourself ... but remember, with every bang, your odds of contracting a disease could increase ... so please, by all means, go out, be fruitful and multiply away. It's your life. Do with it what you will.
            ____________________________
            "One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
            "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
            ____________________________

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            • #66
              Mommy Asher
              "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                When being 'out' takes priority to their service, then yes, they are showing where their priorities lie.
                So you don't think anyone who is in the military should have personal lives (get married, have children)?

                I honestly believe it shouldn't make a difference, but some gay people choose to make it an issue
                Excuse me, but it seems to me that it's the people who are banning gay people that are making it an issue...if it shouldn't make a difference, don't ****ing ban them?
                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                Comment

                • #68
                  Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


                  Sure it does.
                  No, it doesn't, as I have pointed out to you explicitly.

                  You said nothing about ability, and everything about not hurting other people's feelings. Why are you changing your argument now?

                  I'm sorry Asher, if inclusiveness is the most important thing, then the military cannot exclude those with disabilities.
                  You're such a ****ing idiot.

                  You are the only one in this thread that said anything about feelings. You can't even ****ing read, you ****ing idiot.

                  My argument is that sexuality should be irrelevant to whether somebody wants to serve their country. It has **** all to do with feelings, it has **** all to do with disabilities. You are a ****ing idiot.

                  Did I mention you are an idiot?
                  "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                  Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                  Comment

                  • #69
                    So you don't think anyone who is in the military should have personal lives (get married, have children)?
                    They shouldn't infringe on your sworn obligations. Females have a long way to go in equality on this front, and the war over this is primarily between military females themselves.
                    "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                    Comment

                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Patroklos


                      They shouldn't infringe on your sworn obligations. Females have a long way to go in equality on this front.
                      I agree, but being gay doesn't infringe on your sworn obligations either. I'd appreciate if you'd address only the points raised rather than clouding the issue with irrelevant points.
                      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                      Comment

                      • #71
                        You brought it up.
                        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                        Comment

                        • #72
                          Banning gays doesn't make the US military "successful". They are "successful" in your eyes because they have an obscenely large budget. Even that doesn't translate to success -- look at Iraq.
                          Your point being? They have succeeded in Iraq. Civilian casulties are less there then in Afghanistan.

                          I'm asking you about the individual, NOT the infrastructure. You absolutely disrespect every man and woman in Canadian uniform who is willing to give up his or her life for their country. I'm asking you if you're proud of the PERSON. Of THEIR COMMITMENT to their country.
                          I've talked to some. My uncle was in the navy for 20 years, and he's disgusted with the state of things. If he has no cause to be proud of his own service, why should I? The bulk of the heavy lifting is done by the Americans, and I will always be thankful for their sacrifice to an ungrateful nation.

                          But you're not proud of anyone who serves in the Canadian military, because you disagree with the funding of it from politicians?

                          I'd just like to give a colossal **** you on behalf of the people serving and giving their lives right now.
                          I think they should be restored to where they were before Trudeau and his lackeys came to power. They should be able to take on some real responsibilities rather then just 'peacekeeping', such as protecting Canada from an attack. Right now, they cannot do so effectively, and that will hopefully change.
                          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                          Comment

                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

                            I don't have a choice. I don't meet the military's requirements wrt to enlistment, due to disability.

                            This is why I really don't believe the military should become a social experiment, and why inclusivity takes a back seat to effectiveness. If we are to take Asher's argument to it's logical conclusion, the military should accept anyone who wants to serve, so they don't have their feelings hurt.
                            And this was my point Ben: Since you have not served in the military (due to whatever reasons), you really don't have any insight into the true nature of the military and unit cohesion. The best way to understand all of the nuances of military service is to have actually been apart of it.

                            This whole "effectivness" issue is the same old, tired excuse. It was used when Blacks were integrated and it was used again when Women were integrated.
                            ____________________________
                            "One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
                            "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
                            ____________________________

                            Comment

                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Patroklos
                              You brought it up.
                              You still do not comprehend, but I am still not surprised.

                              Ben's comment was that being gay (eg, having a same-sex spouse or partner) means you're putting that priority infront of the service.

                              I was illustrating that if service members can be married and have families, it's absurd to claim that having a same-sex partner means you're putting that at a higher priority than your service.

                              I'm sorry if I'm too intellectual or abstract for your brute nature, but please at least make an effort.
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                              Comment

                              • #75
                                My argument is that sexuality should be irrelevant to whether somebody wants to serve their country.
                                Then why is it an issue for you to serve openly if sexuality is truly irrelevant?

                                It shouldn't matter either way. If it's irrelevant to your service, why are you making it an issue?
                                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                                Comment

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