Study: Gays in the military will not undermine effectiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

And Canada? And Australia? And New Zealand? And South Africa? And Argentina?

All superpowers renowned over the world for their impressive military. I'm sure when the **** hits the fan everyone will call on the Canadians to save them.

Because the argument is that gays are detrimental to the cohesiveness and effectiveness of the military. All we know points to this being FALSE, demonstrably so in all 25 countries that permit gays to openly serve.

What's the last war that any of these militaries have conducted successfully? I can't see much of an argument that any of these militaries are a significant force in the world today. You are asking the US to model themselves after nations that have dismantled for the most part their military, I would suggest they make poor models for the US.

You don't even need to make an argument that the US military is hurt every time they turn away qualified, talented individuals because of who they love. It should be obvious.

Wow, care bear countdown anybody. That brought tears to my eyes.

There are openly gay men serving your country right now in Afghanistan, Ben. Are you proud of that? Or would you ask that they immediately be recalled from serving their country?

I find it puzzling that you are proud of the mission in Afghanistan, but do not question why they refuse to serve in Iraq.

I'm proud of the Americans who have fought and died for my country with no recompense. I hope one day our nation and fighting force can strive to emulate their sacrifice.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
All superpowers renowned over the world for their impressive military. I'm sure when the **** hits the fan everyone will call on the Canadians to save them.

So you belittle the militaries of everyone else, even though they include militaries fighting wars in battlefields just like the USA, because they are smaller? You actually think this invalidates the point?

What's the last war that any of these militaries have conducted successfully? I can't see much of an argument that any of these militaries are a significant force in the world today. You are asking the US to model themselves after nations that have dismantled for the most part their military, I would suggest they make poor models for the US.

The same ones as the US. Actually, the US is worse off than almost all of these because they're also fighting a war in Iraq, which they have not conducted successfully.

Using Ben logic, we've got the militaries with gays conducting successful wars and the militaries banning gays conducting a war in Iraq, which is far from successful. I'm not sure that's the angle you want to take.

Wow, care bear countdown anybody. That brought tears to my eyes.

Answer the damn question, you ****ing coward:

There are openly gay men serving your country right now in Afghanistan, Ben. Are you proud of that? Or would you ask that they immediately be recalled from serving their country?

I find it puzzling that you are proud of the mission in Afghanistan, but do not question why they refuse to serve in Iraq.

This is no thread to try to explain to you for the millionth time the difference between Afghanistan and Iraq. And you ****ing dodged the question again.

Don't take me for an idiot, if I were an idiot I'd be living in BC tutoring people even dumber than I was and petitioning Canada to commit mass atrocities in Iraq just because the folks south of the border are doing it too.

[Ben Kenobi]

USA

It's basically an "axis of evil"...

You would piss on the boots of those who actually stand up and protect this nation?

Wow, that really takes balls. I'm sure you'd go out and put that on your car in Toronto, that America is part of the axis of evil.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You would piss on the boots of those who actually stand up and protect this nation?

Wow, that really takes balls. I'm sure you'd go out and put that on your car in Toronto, that America is part of the axis of evil.

You missed the point again. Look at every other country on that list. Do you think the USA belongs on that list?

The "axis of evil" reference was probably a bit too academic and abstract for you to comprehend. I apologize, I'll dumb it down for you.

[SlowwHand]

Wittlich was in the service. If I'm not mistaken, he retired from the military. I don't think anyone could ever convince me that he didn't serve his time admireably.
Sorry, Wittlich, if you feel I hoist you up as illustration too many times, but when the shoe fits...and in many of my conversations here, you do.

[Asher]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Wittlich was in the service. If I'm not mistaken, he retired from the military. I don't think anyone could ever convince me that he didn't serve his time admireably.
Sorry, Wittlich, if you feel I hoist you up as illustration too many times, but when the shoe fits...and in many of my conversations here, you do.

Ditto for Connorkimbro (where's he at?).

[SlowwHand]

Wasn't Connorkimbro sailing for the waters off Japan?

[Ben Kenobi]

So you belittle the militaries of everyone else, even though they include militaries fighting wars in battlefields just like the USA, because they are smaller? You actually think this invalidates the point?

I think Canada should be modelling themselves after the Americans if they want a successful military rather then vice-versa. I don't see what Canada has to offer that would in any way shape or form improve the US military.

The same ones as the US. Actually, the US is worse off than almost all of these because they're also fighting a war in Iraq, which they have not conducted successfully.

Which is why there are fewer combat deaths in Iraq, which the Americans have concentrated on, then they are in Afghanistan? The only reason that it has been successful in Iraq is because of the US military. We have contributed, but the mission would succeed with and without us.

This is no thread to try to explain to you for the millionth time the difference between Afghanistan and Iraq. And you ****ing dodged the question again.

I don't see why you would be proud of the military in Afghanistan, and not proud of them in Iraq. It makes no sense to me.

I thought about your question some more, because I wanted to give an accurate answer.

No, I'm not proud of the Canadian serviceman in Afghanistan regardless of whether he is gay or straight. I am ashamed that they need to hitch a ride from the Americans. I am ashamed that they cannot succeed in Afghanistan without the help of the Americans. I am ashamed at how inclusivity and political correctness, has replaced service and dedication.

When you rant on about how the military is evil for being discriminatory, I think any nation that is concerned about inclusiveness in their military is decadent. Canada can't even engage overseas, and we are worried about gay people having hurt feelings?

Don't take me for an idiot, if I were an idiot I'd be living in BC tutoring people even dumber than I was and petitioning Canada to commit mass atrocities in Iraq just because the folks south of the border are doing it too.

Whereas we could be bending over and taking it from the Palestianians and Hamas just like Israel. I see how that works.

If you call me a bigot, call me a bigot against Canadians. I am proud of any man whether he is gay and straight who serves in the military provided he is American.

[Kuciwalker]

What's the last war that any of these militaries have conducted successfully?

For ****'s sake, Ben, ISRAEL is on the list.

[SlowwHand]

Other than that Canada is the source of the 2nd most illegal aliens to the USA, and that they harbored draft dodgers and deserters, I've got nothing against them.

[DinoDoc]

When can we expect you to sign up, Asher?

[Wiglaf]

Gays and metrosexuals have no place in the army because they are not as muscular and get upset when their fingernails break, imagine what happens when they land in Iraq. Let's break it down double time: the Jewish and British cultures ARE DIFFERENT FROM US. We all know the French and the British are girly and whine a lot. In America, sticking it in the pooper is like putting mayo on a waffle. It causes anger and discontent. So don't go studying other cultures, they are irrelevant here.

[SlowwHand]

Wittlich, I'm going to put on the other shoe now.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Mr Snuggles
Don't take me for an idiot, if I were an idiot I'd be living in BC tutoring people even dumber than I was and petitioning Canada to commit mass atrocities in Iraq just because the folks south of the border are doing it too.

Kinda hard not to, when you repeatedly try to get Ben to come around to your way of thinking.

Having served in the military, I honestly wouldn't care if the person I'm fighting beside is gay or not.

The only way openly gay service members would affect the ranks are the few idiots that would discriminate against them because they were gay. I wouldn't want them in the military anyway.

I don't agree with Asher on a lot of things, but I don't disagree with him because he's gay.

ACK!

[Deity Dude]

I never served in the military so I have no firsthand experience. There are only 2 points that makes me think it might not be wise

(NOTICE WORDS "MIGHT NOT" and notice my admission of no firsthand knowledge - sorry I have to do that but sometimes people won't actually read what you say)

Back to the 2 points:

A: While I want America to be a socially moderate/liberal place to live, I don't want the military to become a social experiment. It's not their job as I see it.

The military's job is to entrust large groups of people to constantly smaller groups of people with the ultimate goal of killing people, blowing up things and protecting land from armed people who don't want you to have it.

so considering I have no firsthand knowledge and I am not interested in the military becoming the social beacon of emerging attitudes, I would

B) Rely on the people who know most about it or at least are ultimately held accountable for it. They aren't the politicians, they aren't the social activists, they aren't the anti-gay group. They are the Generals, Admirals and Colonels.

Now as far as I have heard, the majority of this group are against allowing openly homosexuals to serve in the military. I didn't say all but I did say the majority. And remember there is no Consitutional right to be accepted or to serve in the military. In fact quite the contrary.

Personally, I think in general one of the biggest mistakes society can make is to somehow force cutting edge civilian values on the military and it's leaders.

As for what Canada, France, N Korea or anyone else does... who gives a crap. America shouldn't try and tell them how to run their military and I am not too interested in what their opinion is on how to run America's. And let's remember that it has not been shown here that they even express an opinion on OUR military's stance on homosexuals. All we've seen is where an unreliable poster has chosen a few countries that support his case and told us what their policies were on THEIR armed forces. This is meaningless.

A stronger argument can be made by those gays that have served. And while I truly respect your service on a personal level I can't necessarily support changing the rules because of your service.

As a poor analogy, If my teen broke my curfew, took my car without my knowledge and then showed up at the scene of an accident and saved someone's life, I would respect his actions at the accident but I wouldn't necessarily change his curfew or driving privaledges if I still felt it was the wrong thing to do. But it would certainly make me look at it closer. Now the analogy is poor because that is a family matter and it is a civilian issue instead of a military one. But I thought it represented some of the points where you can be proud of someone service and still not necessarily support breaking the rules to accomodate others to engage in the same.

I will say, if it were up to me personally, I could care or less. But I am not the guy in charge and therefore I would defer my opinion to the person(s) in charge on this issue.