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Study: Gays in the military will not undermine effectiveness

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  • Study: Gays in the military will not undermine effectiveness

    REACTION 1: DUH.
    REACTION 2: SUCK IT DOWN, POLY PEOPLE WHO SAID OTHERWISE.



    Study Released on Military Gays
    By AP/ANNE FLAHERTY

    (WASHINGTON) — Congress should repeal the "don't ask, don't tell" law because the presence of gays in the military is unlikely to undermine the ability to fight and win, according to a new study released by a California-based research center.

    The study was conducted by four retired military officers, including the three-star Air Force lieutenant general who in early 1993 was tasked with implementing President Clinton's policy that the military stop questioning recruits on their sexual orientation.

    "Evidence shows that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly is unlikely to pose any significant risk to morale, good order, discipline or cohesion," the officers states.

    To support its contention, the panel points to the British and Israeli militaries, where it says gay people serve openly without hurting the effectiveness of combat operations.

    Undermining unit cohesion was a determining factor when Congress passed the 1993 law, intended to keep the military from asking recruits their sexual orientation. In turn, service members can't say they are gay or bisexual, engage in homosexual activity or marry a member of the same sex.

    Supporters of the ban contend there is still no empirical evidence that allowing gays to serve openly won't hurt combat effectiveness.

    "The issue is trust and confidence" among members of a unit, said Lt. Col. Robert Maginnis, who retired in 1993 after working on the issue for the Army. When some people with a different sexual orientation are "in a close combat environment, it results in a lack of trust," he said.

    The study was sponsored by the Michael D. Palm Center at the University of California at Santa Barbara, which said it picked the panel members to portray a bipartisan representation of the different service branches. According to its Web site, the Palm Center "is committed to keeping researchers, journalists and the general public informed of the latest developments in the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy debate." Palm himself was "a staunch supporter of civil rights in the gay community," the site says.

    Two of the officers on the panel have endorsed Democratic candidates since leaving the military — Army Lt. Gen. Robert Gard, who supports Barack Obama, and Marine Corps Gen. Hugh Aitken, who backed Clinton in 1996.

    Air Force Lt. Gen. Robert Minter Alexander, a Republican, was assigned in 1993 to a high-level panel established by the Defense Department to examine the issue of gays in the military. At one point, he signed an order that prohibited the military from asking a recruit's sexual orientation.

    Alexander said at the time he was simply trying to carry out the president's orders and not take a position. But he now believes the law should be repealed because it assumes the existence of gays in the military is disruptive to units even though cultural attitudes are changing.

    Further, the Defense Department and not Congress should be in charge of regulating sexual misconduct within the military, he said.

    "Who else can better judge whether it's a threat to good order and discipline?" Alexander asked.

    Navy Vice Adm. Jack Shanahan said he had no opinion on the issue when he joined the panel, having never confronted it in his 35-year military career. A self-described Republican who opposes the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war, Shanahan said he was struck by the loss of personal integrity required by individuals to carry out "don't ask, don't tell."

    "Everyone was living a big lie — the homosexuals were trying to hide their sexual orientation and the commanders were looking the other way because they didn't want to disrupt operations by trying to enforce the law," he said.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

  • #2
    California-based research center.
    Says it all.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

    Comment


    • #3
      What exactly is the evidence?
      USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
      The video may avatar is from

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Will
        What exactly is the evidence?
        Other than the fact that every military on the face of this planet that has gays openly serving in the military having no problems?
        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

        Comment


        • #5
          Feeeeelings, wo-o-o feeeeeelings,

          Other than the fact that every military on the face of this planet that has gays openly serving in the military having no problems?
          Islamic countries ban gays altogether, and they don't seem to have any problems.

          We should follow their model.
          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
            Feeeeelings, wo-o-o feeeeeelings,
            Some day, you're going to be married to a man, Ben. This unhealthy obsession and repression you've got going is just depressing.
            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

            Comment


            • #7
              Some day, you're going to be married to a man, Ben. This unhealthy obsession and repression you've got going is just depressing.
              Nah, I'm gonna get married to a catholic gal who's a total knockout and we'll have lots of kiddos together.
              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                Islamic countries ban gays altogether, and they don't seem to have any problems.

                We should follow their model.
                There's no problems in Iran? Really, Ben?

                The problem is there are some monumental retards asking for "evidence" that gays in the military won't ruin cohesion and effectiveness. Such "evidence" has been provided at a 100% success rate for every single country that has gays in the military serving openly. But they still ask for evidence.

                Give up the ghost, people.
                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


                  Nah, I'm gonna get married to a catholic gal who's a total knockout and we'll have lots of kiddos together.
                  No, you're not. That'd involve sex.
                  "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                  Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There's no problems in Iran? Really, Ben?
                    Morale seems higher there then here. Maybe we should ban gays altogether, and then our military would be happier.

                    The problem is there are some monumental retards asking for "evidence" that gays in the military won't ruin cohesion and effectiveness. Such "evidence" has been provided at a 100% success rate for every single country that has gays in the military serving openly. But they still ask for evidence.
                    I fail to see how such a 'study' would be empirical in any sense of the word. Surprised to see such a stickler for science peddling this fluff.
                    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

                      I fail to see how such a 'study' would be empirical in any sense of the word. Surprised to see such a stickler for science peddling this fluff.
                      Please propose an empirical study for this?

                      What has been done is all of the militaries that have gays serving have been asked from a high-level to a low-level how it has impacted. Incidents and casualties have been looked at. There's not a sign it's impacted at all. At all.

                      The fact is no matter what people show you or what people discover, you will always discriminate against gays, Ben. You are a bigot, plain as day.

                      There are openly gay men serving your country right now in Afghanistan, Ben. Are you proud of that? Or would you ask that they immediately be recalled from serving their country?
                      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Supporters of the ban contend there is still no empirical evidence that allowing gays to serve openly won't hurt combat effectiveness.




                        This is Ben-level logic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes. The military is the one discriminating, they need to provide the "empirical evidence" that this would hurt combat effectiveness because every other military in the world that does this says it's no problem.

                          The onus is on the bigots here.
                          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes. The military is the one discriminating, they need to provide the "empirical evidence" that this would hurt combat effectiveness because every other military in the world that does this says it's no problem.
                            I hope whomever funded this study can get their money back. Pointing at Israel and the UK, anyone can do that.

                            How about doing some real work and coming up with an argument that the US military policy is detrimental to it's performance rather then just pointing elsewhere and saying the grass is greener?

                            The onus is on the bigots here.
                            Ahh, the cry of accurate and impartial science.
                            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                              I hope whomever funded this study can get their money back. Pointing at Israel and the UK, anyone can do that.
                              And Canada? And Australia? And New Zealand? And South Africa? And Argentina? Even Russia permits gay soldiers.

                              The list of countries that ban gays in the military is more telling:

                              Yemen
                              Iran
                              China
                              North Korea
                              USA
                              Syria

                              It's basically an "axis of evil"...

                              How about doing some real work and coming up with an argument that the US military policy is detrimental to it's performance rather then just pointing elsewhere and saying the grass is greener
                              Because the argument is that gays are detrimental to the cohesiveness and effectiveness of the military. All we know points to this being FALSE, demonstrably so in all 25 countries that permit gays to openly serve.

                              You don't even need to make an argument that the US military is hurt every time they turn away qualified, talented individuals because of who they love. It should be obvious.

                              You also dodge this question:
                              There are openly gay men serving your country right now in Afghanistan, Ben. Are you proud of that? Or would you ask that they immediately be recalled from serving their country?
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                              Comment

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