Women - Pretentious or Prudish?

[David Floyd]

Also, if you are trying to avoid unwanted pregnancies, STDs, and bad memories, how does waiting until marrige help?

True, if the person you marry feels the same way as you, then you are (probably) in the clear, at least in terms of STDs and maybe bad memories. Unwanted pregnancies can and do still happen, of course. More to the point, though, if you are with someone you truly care about, what's the big deal? Stipulating that you trust that person (which, if you are going to marry them, you clearly do), what's the difference between sex before marriage and waiting? That's actually a serious question - I've had that argument with my ultra-religious mom quite a few times, and she hasn't ever given me a satisfactory answer ("because the Bible says so" doesn't really qualify).

[Jon Miller]

If you care about someone and trust them/etc, why not get married?

If there is something that is keeping you from getting married, that same thing might be a good reason to keep from having sex also (if you are of the traditional mindset).

JM

[Traianvs]

I think it's admirable to be careful and self-respecting

So people who have sex with others before marriage because they enjoy it are not self-respecting?

[Cartimandua]

Originally posted by Traianvs
So people who have sex with others before marriage because they enjoy it are not self-respecting?

There is no need to pull undesired meanings out of what I said. I was just giving the girl props for having enough self worth (aka respect) to follow her standards in a world which looks down on morals.

However, I have been witness to many individuals who do not feel that they are of any worth or importance and those people more often than not will be the ones doing stupid things like one night stands and drunk driving. If you truly felt valued you wouldn't need to get drunk or throw your emotions and care to the wind by sleeping with every guy that approaches you.

[b etor]

Originally posted by Cartimandua
Thank you Lancer

B etor, Good for your sister. I think it's admirable to be careful and self-respecting. Not kissing before marriage would have probably killed me off, and might make it harder to convince a guy to get married, but I wish her luck in her efforts



I will be very honest, that is one of the reasons why I married a guy who was also a virgin, I didn't like the idea of being compared to someone else.

oh, she's going to a realllllly roman catholic college, so there will be kids just like her there. . she'll prolly end up falling for someone who wants to be a priest though.

i like being compared. i'm always teh best

[MattBowron]

pardon me for interrupting, but in answer to the question women - pretentious or prudish

my answer is that men can just be as pretentious or prudish but i believe the answer as to whether a male or female is pretensious or prudish is based upon what they value, which in turn can be created from the context of their experiences, including how they are nurtured, events that have taken place in their lives concerning socialisation with both their own gender and the opposite gender, as either case will effect those who are hetero, homo, bi or trans in my honest opinion

but also in a sense, a person could be considered both capable of being pretensious or prudish, some could consider this based on psychology, the freudian idea of the id, ego and superego could be related in the sense that being prudish could be 'id'ish and pretentious being 'superego'ish, or it could be that these are two states that are like seasons that we as humans cycle through during certain periods of our existence, in a post-modernist version of self, there is the adaptive self where a person's personality adapts to the social group they are around

pardon if i'm waffling on or making a mountain out of a molehill, but these are just other perspectives i'd like to share in the conversation

thankyou for reading this

[Ben Kenobi]

Also, if you are trying to avoid unwanted pregnancies, STDs, and bad memories, how does waiting until marrige help?

The same way reducing the number of partners helps.

For every year you wait, that lowers the number of partners you can expect over the course of your life. This alone will mean that there is a lower chance of you getting an STD.

True, if the person you marry feels the same way as you, then you are (probably) in the clear, at least in terms of STDs and maybe bad memories.

Most likely, and even if you aren't completely in the clear, your risk is drastically lower.

Unwanted pregnancies can and do still happen, of course.

What does that have to do with STD's unless you consider pregnancy to be a disease?

More to the point, though, if you are with someone you truly care about, what's the big deal? Stipulating that you trust that person (which, if you are going to marry them, you clearly do), what's the difference between sex before marriage and waiting?

All the difference in the world. If you love and trust them why have sex before marriage? I know what you are saying, that if they both trust each other because they love on another that they should have just have sex and not worry about the rest of things. The difference is that in waiting for marriage, that gives them the confirmation that this is the one. If you are just going to be with one person your entire life, then you want to wait, I wouldn't sleep with them before marriage, because before then you aren't so sure.

That's actually a serious question - I've had that argument with my ultra-religious mom quite a few times, and she hasn't ever given me a satisfactory answer ("because the Bible says so" doesn't really qualify).

I figured that was the case. The bible says that the two become one flesh, and that this happens in marriage. To have sex before marriage is saying that you guys will eventually get married, but you can't wait for sex long enough to wait until you actually are married. So you are sending mixed messages.

[Monk]

I'd think there's a practical argument against no sex before marriage based on the fact that a lot of people wouldn't know exactly what they want until they've tried some.

I can picture myself a situation where at the end of the honeymoon, the guy becomes perfectly happy with the missonary position for 15 minutes on Saturday nights, the girl on the other hand wants something more or something different.

A sex life where at least one of the two is not satisfied - literally - could quickly result in a divorce, obviously, and I'm thinking some test drives before marriage would be a benefit simply because then people know what they want and what to anticipate from the other dude or dudette.

Nothing much to back it up, I'll admit, just a gut feeling. But I'd still be interested in hearing a take from somebody who advocates or practices/practiced the approach, since I literally don't know anybody like that.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'd think there's a practical argument against no sex before marriage based on the fact that a lot of people wouldn't know exactly what they want until they've tried some.

Sex isn't like something you drink or buy off the shelf. It's going to be very different for each person. Say you go out there and have sex with a few people, but they like different things, how can you apply that to someone else when you marry?

I can picture myself a situation where at the end of the honeymoon, the guy becomes perfectly happy with the missonary position for 15 minutes on Saturday nights, the girl on the other hand wants something more or something different.

Now, what if neither of them have had sex before? How do they know they aren't satisfied? You learn together, and the first time isn't really going to be satisfying as the later times will be just because you know each other much better each subsequent time.

A sex life where at least one of the two is not satisfied - literally - could quickly result in a divorce, obviously, and I'm thinking some test drives before marriage would be a benefit simply because then people know what they want and what to anticipate from the other dude or dudette.

With the same person or with someone else? How special is a honeymoon if you've been having sex for years prior?

Nothing much to back it up, I'll admit, just a gut feeling. But I'd still be interested in hearing a take from somebody who advocates or practices/practiced the approach, since I literally don't know anybody like that.

I know a few, and like Carti they like the fact that they one they are with has never had anyone else. That gives them a sense of security. I think the issue with satisfaction is true for any couple, they need to be able to accommodate each other.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by Lancer
I think most women just have far more class than most men, also a more developed sense of shame.

Lies!

[Monk]

Thanks for the reply, Ben.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Sex isn't like something you drink or buy off the shelf. It's going to be very different for each person. Say you go out there and have sex with a few people, but they like different things, how can you apply that to someone else when you marry?

Well, I can at the very least be sure of my own sexuality - what I want and how I want it. Sex being different for each person is exactly the point I'm making, and you can't really know what works for you if you've never tried. In one sense sex is pretty much like something you drink or buy off the shelf - surely you're not accepting anybody's claim they like or don't like whatever food they haven't bothered to taste first.

(Edit: Of course the thing is I'd also have sex with the future wife before we'd go through with it - figuring out what to do and how to do it with her, and vice versa. For her sake as well as mine.)

Now, what if neither of them have had sex before? How do they know they aren't satisfied? You learn together, and the first time isn't really going to be satisfying as the later times will be just because you know each other much better each subsequent time.

How they know if they aren't satisfied? Because they've tried some things out, and one of them loved it, the other one didn't think it was so great. Or maybe their sex is great, but one of them feels like doing it three times as much as the other. Sure you learn together, but at the end of the day people are inclined to different things and that's the reason you might want to find out first-hand what your partner is into sexually before you marry, just like you'd want to know about other stuff about her.

With the same person or with someone else? How special is a honeymoon if you've been having sex for years prior?

I haven't been on a honeymoon, but why don't you ask one of the millions of people who have, despite past sexual experiences?

I suppose they're celebrating their love and their marriage, and surely you're not arguing that can't be done unless you were a virgin.

I know a few, and like Carti they like the fact that they one they are with has never had anyone else. That gives them a sense of security. I think the issue with satisfaction is true for any couple, they need to be able to accommodate each other.

I would worry they're not as secure as they think though - but no problem with their choice, of course.

[Monk]

Let me just say once again I appreciate the reply. I don't get to talk to somebody of your persuasion often (edit: this is the closest I've ever been, at least in terms of substantial discussion), and you seem to have put a good deal of effort into your opinion. The more reason to reply, if DF won't mind we're getting a little off-topic (sorry, DF).

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I think the issue with satisfaction is true for any couple, they need to be able to accommodate each other.

Now, I can't believe I missed the implications of that very sentence.

You need to be able to accomodate each other. This means you have to know each other very well. I'm sure you agree that anybody's sexuality is a core part of their person, and how on earth are you going to know that without checking it out first?

You'd never marry somebody without knowing their family or their friends or their financial situation or their personal problems or their dreams including their worst nightmares. Seems odd that something as important for a couple as sex should be something you can begin to figure out some way along the line after you get married. While I admit you can discuss it beforehand, I'd still say you don't know what food you like until you've had some.

[Monk]

'You seem to have put a good deal of effort into your opinion' in the above means that you've thought about it a lot which I appreciate. Just to make sure we're on the right track here, it's supposed to be a compliment even if it may sound weird.

[Colonâ„¢]

Don't trust Monk. He's the most dangerous when he's acting all nice.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, I can at the very least be sure of my own sexuality - what I want and how I want it. Sex being different for each person is exactly the point I'm making, and you can't really know what works for you if you've never tried.

True, but what use is it to have to start all over with new people every time? In a marriage you are training one another. What you learn each time can be applied to the next.

In one sense sex is pretty much like something you drink or buy off the shelf - surely you're not accepting anybody's claim they like or don't like whatever food they haven't bothered to taste first.

I meant in the sense that when you buy a coke you don't expect to get 7-up. There is a certain expectation when you make a purchase that what you buy will be like your past experiences.

Sex isn't like that, at least not with different partners. The dishes may look the same but they can be very different.

How they know if they aren't satisfied? Because they've tried some things out, and one of them loved it, the other one didn't think it was so great.

This is true of all couples though, the important thing is the communication. You have to be able to ask for what you want and be able to show and learn exactly how to please someone!

Oh, the only trouble with this is that they don't really know what they want, and many times what they think they want isn't what they really want, and the only way to find that out is when they do get the chance to be together. I don't think it's helpful to jump the gun and do it early, because you lack the security of a marriage.

I suppose they're celebrating their love and their marriage, and surely you're not arguing that can't be done unless you were a virgin.

Oh, I don't believe it isn't pleasureable but I would think the feeling would be different for a couple who has never had sex at all, then one that has done so quite often.

I would worry they're not as secure as they think though - but no problem with their choice, of course

Oh, insecurities would always be there! Especially with trying to figure out what works best when you don't have the experience.

As for sexuality. I agree it is a core part of what makes up a person, but it's not the be all or the end all. I also don't believe you need to have sex to have a good understanding of how a person feels on this topic. I do believe you should talk things out about expectations before hand, and be very explicit as possible. Even if you don't know if what you want is what you will like, you will at least have an idea of what you want things to be like, and can talk about that sort of thing.