Should your country boycott the Olympics?

[Lancer]

They followed the blood trail to an athiests house.

I hope.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Try spraypaint. I've seen it and it's been done to my parish before.

They are welcome to hand out free condoms off church property to passerbys. I have no problem with them saying that they think my religion is false. That's why we live in a free country.

I would appreciate the same respect from them, that they will not attempt to vandalise our buildings. Sadly, some atheists don't seem to understand this principle.

They aren't prohibiting you from practicing your religion though. If anything it's prohibiting you from distributing information (freedom of speech), but then you aren't a citizen so I don't see the issue here.

[Ben Kenobi]

How do you know it was atheists? Sounds more like bored teenagers to me. Tell them to go post on Poly.

I wish, but there was much more to things then just a teenage prank.

The timing, what they stencilled, say much more then that.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
They are welcome to hand out free condoms off church property to passerbys.

Fine. Hand the bibles out in Korea then - just keep it off Chinese property.

[Kidlicious]

btw, your avatar is funny BK

[SlowwHand]

I guess substituting a flashlight just isn't the same.
Hell, the people trying to manage to carry it unscathed need a medal. Lot more competition than the Games.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It makes sense to me that if they are unwilling to grant freedom of religion, why those who are believers in that religion should go there for the Olympics.

Because they want the shiny medals.

But this thread is about countries boycotting the Olympics, not individuals.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Kidicious


btw, your avatar is funny BK

Do you know who it is?

[Ben Kenobi]

btw, your avatar is funny BK

Yes, yes it is. I'm the a-number 1 Flames fan in all of Poly.

[DarkCloud]

Ben Kenobi
As Kidicious demonstrated, the ban isn't on personal bibles, it's on prostelyzing Jehovas' witnesses sorts of people.

You won't believe how ANGRY ordinary chinese people are at western media sources for "spreading these lies" (as contacts in China both Chinese and Foreign have told me). Ordinary Chinese people are extremely nationalist. (I recommend Peter Hay Gries' book "China's New Nationalism.)

Missionaries do practice in china, but they are generally registered and known by the government. For my part, I ran into several missionaries in Beijing and found it slightly upsetting, but then again, I dislike missionary activities.

China's history has led it to distrust these missionary influences. Why? 1852 Taiping Rebellion. pseudo-Christian anti-government rebellion. Then Colonizers attempted to get Chinese to accept their religions to pacify and exploit them. Also; 1980s Solidarity Movement in Poland--- led to fall of the Soviet Union... the Chinese see the Dalai Lama in an analogous position to John Paul II- for good reason.

Also, spiritual movements in China have often led to chaos- 1901 Boxer Rebellion, and other more ancient ones. More recently- the Falun Gong practitioners managed to sit nearly 10,000 people outside of Zhongnanhai- the seat of Chinese government, without anyone knowing about it in 1999!

This is not to say that religious suppression is good- but this is part of the reason why. The chinese government is deathly afraid of collapsing. It realizes it is on pins and needles... I would wager to say though that if it fell, the west would NOT like what replaces it- which would likely be a hyper-nationalist government.

Darkcloud, the issue for me is that China wants contact with the rest of the world on it's own terms. That's not going to happen, and they have gone so far as to say that anyone who refuses to abide by their rules can't come to the games.

This is very true. I agree with you that it is disgusting on the Chinese' part. However, how is the rest of the world supposed to "win" in this situation? China is in a relatively strong position. consider it like a pouty, mean United States crica 1920 in social development, but crica 1960 in terms of industrial and political international development.

I think it is unfair to hold it to a different standard than the colonial powers were held to. China is extremely racist and does want all other countries to kowtow to it. I think it will be a disaster for the world if China wins the most gold medals- the Chinese will become about as arrogant as the Germans during World War II. It is VERY importnat to the chinese to demonstrate they are racially superior to everyone else. But the way these boycots etc are carried out are not helping the situation- they are causing the chinese to dig in stronger and stronger.

The Chinese psyche is through the backdoor. In the past, political dissidents have been arrested through personal favors to Presidents and foreigners. The ones that made the biggest news stories and were the most humilitaing, often were not released on time, etc. Democracy Wall advocate Wei Jinsheng was a bit of an anomaly, but remember, he was extradited after the SECOND time he was imprisoned.

There are many problems with China, I admit, and if you like I will be glad to discuss them in another post, however, China and the reasons its leadership and its people act some ways are often misunderstood, so please understand that is the sense in which I am generally writing right now.

I don't think it's a matter of athletes being denied entry. I'm entitiled to my opinion, and I don't think the Chinese government represents their people. Yeah, I know. Some smartass will say the same about USA or Britain. Go live in China. Drop us a line on how you like it so much better.

I'll take my worst day over the average Chinese's best.

Slowwhand, it's complicated. The way China is portrayed in the media is not really how it is over there. The West often doesn't understand China. For example, I had to write to the Wall Street Journal for a correction because they screwed up in an article about China- they printed the correction (they listed a city as being in Tibet that was over 900 miles away from the province... it's a long story and the mistake was semi-reasonable but demonstrated that they rely on the wrong (biased) sources or mishear things.)

China, I think, can best be described as a Libertarian Police State. As long as you have money, or connections you can do whatever the hell you want... But if you challenge the government or stability (defined rather broadly... it's impossible to criticize the leaders)- then things are going to go very poorly for you.

----
Finally, FYI- I lived for over a year in China, and will probably be living there again sometime soon. My schooling also focused on Chinese Politics and Civil Society. (appeal to authority )

[SlowwHand]

Boycotting Chinese goods sticks them worse. No fallout for the athletes, who are supposed to represent the setting aside of conflict for a bit.

[DarkCloud]

Slowwhand, you're right. That's a personal decision, though.

I do not agree with it but I respect the decision.

However, for a government to lead the push on boycotts of goods would be very damaging to international stability. (Unless of course it was a boycott of faulty goods of some sort.)

[Ben Kenobi]

As Kidicious demonstrated, the ban isn't on personal bibles, it's on prostelyzing Jehovas' witnesses sorts of people.

You aren't allowed to bring more then one bible into china.

That is a farce. I don't see why you don't get it. Why is the Chinese government so afraid of bible smugglers? Why should they even care if people choose to bring more then one?

Honestly, it shouldn't even be an issue for China, and yet they have made it an issue.

You are saying I'm lying, fine. I know what I'm talking about and believe me, China does not like Christianity.

You won't believe how ANGRY ordinary chinese people are at western media sources for "spreading these lies" (as contacts in China both Chinese and Foreign have told me). Ordinary Chinese people are extremely nationalist. (I recommend Peter Hay Gries' book "China's New Nationalism.)

Yes, and Christians are themselves fed up with the response of the Chinese to persecution of ordinary Christian believers in China. It isn't about the west, it's about the followers of Christ, many of whom are eastern being persecuted for their beliefs in China.

I have nothing against Chinese nationalism. I used to go to Chinese Martyrs parish in Richmond while I lived there. 95 percent Chinese Catholic. Nationalism isn't the issue, persecution is.

Missionaries do practice in china, but they are generally registered and known by the government. For my part, I ran into several missionaries in Beijing and found it slightly upsetting, but then again, I dislike missionary activities.

I have plenty of books I can show you if you want. China is horrible for human rights violations and they are written by Chinese Christians who have lived and been there.

Gosh, you were accosted by a missionary, I bet you couldn't even tell me who he was with.

China's history has led it to distrust these missionary influences. Why? 1852 Taiping Rebellion. pseudo-Christian anti-government rebellion.

Christians were scapegoats there. Why are we responsible for some wacky warlord seeking to overthrow the Emperor?

Then Colonizers attempted to get Chinese to accept their religions to pacify and exploit them. Also; 1980s Solidarity Movement in Poland--- led to fall of the Soviet Union... the Chinese see the Dalai Lama in an analogous position to John Paul II- for good reason.

So what's the issue with Chinese men women and children who want to convert and worship their Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ?

How is it contrary to the nationalism of China, and how are they less then Chinese for worshipping Christ. Christianity isn't a 'western invention', it is far older in China then it is here.

Also, spiritual movements in China have often led to chaos- 1901 Boxer Rebellion, and other more ancient ones. More recently- the Falun Gong practitioners managed to sit nearly 10,000 people outside of Zhongnanhai- the seat of Chinese government, without anyone knowing about it in 1999!

When was the last time Christians were responsible and not the scapegoats? Please, tell me how many uprisings Christians are leading every day against the persecution in China? Why are there not riots throughout China by the millions of Christians who live there?

Please tell me Darkcloud. Surely you can explain to me why the violent Christians aren't burning cars in Canton.

This is not to say that religious suppression is good- but this is part of the reason why. The chinese government is deathly afraid of collapsing. It realizes it is on pins and needles... I would wager to say though that if it fell, the west would NOT like what replaces it- which would likely be a hyper-nationalist government.

Such is the way of the world. If the Chinese government is so weak that one monk with a book in his hand can topple the entire nation, then they deserve to fall.

It's not my place to decide for the Chinese who will be their leader, but explain to my why a hyper nationalist china would be a bad thing as opposed to the China we have now that hates Christians and Buddhists and crushes dissent whenever possible.

This is very true. I agree with you that it is disgusting on the Chinese' part. However, how is the rest of the world supposed to "win" in this situation? China is in a relatively strong position. consider it like a pouty, mean United States crica 1920 in social development, but crica 1960 in terms of industrial and political international development.

China is too strong for the world to stand up to them. Yeah sure. I'm quaking in my boots in China.

I know the numbers. China has 20 years to make their mark on the world, and I fully expect them to do whatever it takes in the next 20 years to accomplish their goals.

I think it is unfair to hold it to a different standard than the colonial powers were held to. China is extremely racist and does want all other countries to kowtow to it. I think it will be a disaster for the world if China wins the most gold medals- the Chinese will become about as arrogant as the Germans during World War II. It is VERY importnat to the chinese to demonstrate they are racially superior to everyone else. But the way these boycots etc are carried out are not helping the situation- they are causing the chinese to dig in stronger and stronger.

China will learn as did everyone else. I am expecting a war, just as Germany did in the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th. They are in a bad position at the moment, and the writing is in the wall. If I were Chinese, I would be responding the same way.

There are many problems with China, I admit, and if you like I will be glad to discuss them in another post, however, China and the reasons its leadership and its people act some ways are often misunderstood, so please understand that is the sense in which I am generally writing right now.

I understand that China is in a bad way, and I'm not particularly shocked by China. I am challenging them to act in a way I know they are capable. I don't see what's wrong with doing so, and I think they are very able to 'survive Christianity' so to speak.

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You aren't allowed to bring more then one bible into china.

That is a farce. I don't see why you don't get it. Why is the Chinese government so afraid of bible smugglers? Why should they even care if people choose to bring more then one?

Honestly, it shouldn't even be an issue for China, and yet they have made it an issue.

You are saying I'm lying, fine. I know what I'm talking about and believe me, China does not like Christianity.

In the sense that how you wrote distorted the facts by implying no bibles were allowed in- yes, you were lying, you may not have intended it because you were upset- but yes you mispresented the facts earlier. Earlier you expressed upset that people couldn't bring in any bible, the truth is multiple bibles were prohibited.

* Religion is by nature political.
* The Chinese government controls political opposition.
* Thus it does not trust these politically motivated Christians who come from outside.
* In the sense that if a Chinese person wants to go to mass somewhere, they are free to do so.
* In the sense that you have a personal friend and want to discuss religion, you are free to do so.
* In the sense that China maintains personal rights to beliefs, this ban on extra bibles is fair, especially since the Olympics are supposed to be non-political.
* China's official religion is Atheist
* It is certainly the right of a country to control the flow of documents it believes are subversive to the state.
* Now, is china overreacting- yes. Do I think that in a perfect world they should allow people to pass out bibles if they want, then yes- I accept free speech, but I certainly understand and respect the Chinese government's fear which is based on historical circumstances.

I have nothing against Chinese nationalism. I used to go to Chinese Martyrs parish in Richmond while I lived there. 95 percent Chinese Catholic. Nationalism isn't the issue, persecution is.

I'm not certain you understand what I was getting at when I mentioned that. Or if you do, then I apologize because I don't understand how American Chinese people would necessarily have the same tendencies as Chinese-Chinese people. While I have been emailed many anti-Tibet messages by American-Chinese friends, I still tend to think that the general nationalist tendencies are much stronger in China, and perhaps more disturbing than the ones you may have noted at a "Chinese martyr's parish" that is likely stocked with Chinese people who left the mainland before 1950.

I have plenty of books I can show you if you want. China is horrible for human rights violations and they are written by Chinese Christians who have lived and been there.

Believe me. I've read and talked with enough people to know about those in pretty detailed manners. I'm not ignorant about that issue.

Gosh, you were accosted by a missionary, I bet you couldn't even tell me who he was with.

Why should I- the fellow couldn't even speak Chinese and he was standing at a subway stop handing out little missionary tracts in English of all languages. He was foolish.

Christians were scapegoats there. Why are we responsible for some wacky warlord seeking to overthrow the Emperor?

Because that's the Chinese Psyche- to take these ideas and then go with them. Other revolts in Africa, have been led by charismatic leaders who claim to have been "touched by God" for example- religion is a very dangerous weapon. Honestly, China is a very strange place with very strange thinking- and it makes complete sense to most chinese people that religion is dangerous.

So what's the issue with Chinese men women and children who want to convert and worship their Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ?

If they're just content with worshiping and keeping it private, the Chinese government doesn't have an issue.

Admittedly, the Chinese have restrictions on the licensing of Bishops in the Catholic Church, and on Protestant preachers as well- which I agree should not exist. However, they are understandable given China's history, and we can hope that as the Churches don't cause unrest and dissent and upset social stability that they can make a legitmate argument that they should have more autonomy.

Churches get cracked down on when they give trouble. If they can maintain their mission- which is to be nonpolitical- then they can exist. But churches ultimately are NOT apolitical- which is disturbing a la America's Jeremiah Wright style.

How is it contrary to the nationalism of China, and how are they less then Chinese for worshipping Christ. Christianity isn't a 'western invention', it is far older in China then it is here.

Christianity came to china around 700 ad or so... Nestorian Christians, yes, I know. To a limited degree I've studied that as well as Matteo Ricci and the other Jesuit's arrival in China much later.

China traditionally is a country without real religious belief. Oh, they've always believed in spirits, and even many atheists in china believe in spirits and the supernatural- but Confucianism and traditional Daoism were not religions. Later, both have sort of become semi-religious. And Buddhism is an imported religion from India.

And why is it contrary to the nationalism of China---> Catholics look to Rome for guidance, not Beijing. This undermines the state's authority.

Protestant ministers look to America, or Australia, or Europe for guidance, and often don't understand much about china. All they are concerned about is spreading their words.

When was the last time Christians were responsible and not the scapegoats? Please, tell me how many uprisings Christians are leading every day against the persecution in China? Why are there not riots throughout China by the millions of Christians who live there?

Please tell me Darkcloud. Surely you can explain to me why the violent Christians aren't burning cars in Canton.

Well, there are violent tibetan monks and violent moslem uighurs and threatening falun gong practitioners. Is it so bizarre to assume that Christians could also have potential for unrest- especially considering the Polish Solidarity movement.

China has not liked NGOs or any "second power" that could be used to oppose the government. Interestingly, the amount of NGOs has steadliy risen as the Chinese realize they NEED them to minister to their poor. Gradually, the churches can gain freedom- I am confident of that.

I would also agree- if you argue it that in social realms, china is moving too slowly toward modernization. They keep telling excused that "china is different or special" or that "becuase china has so many people it cannot be like the west"- which is 75% crap. But it's understandable that they're afraid. The government doesn't want to end up like Louis XVI who granted rights then took them away- which led to unrest- WHICH is part of the reason why Tibet is right now such a powderkeg. Until ~2003 they were granted more religious freedom, then the government cracked down (for complicated reasons that were extremely foolish)

It's not my place to decide for the Chinese who will be their leader, but explain to my why a hyper nationalist china would be a bad thing as opposed to the China we have now that hates Christians and Buddhists and crushes dissent whenever possible.

Quite simply because a hypernationalist china would likely invade Japan. Chinese people hate Japan and want to teach them a lesson because their little brother is arrogant and hurt China. Remember the 2005 anti-Japanese riots, the government almost lost control of them as ranging groups of people actually turned over cars and set fire-- becuase the protests were joined by exploited migrant workers.

A Hypernationalist China would not be a friend of the west and would likely persecute western religions even more- because evil westerners always tell lies about China and hurt it.

Remember the 1999 anti-American protests about the embassy bombing in Belgrade. Chinese are still EXTREMELY angry about that. At the time they threw molotov cocktails into American Embassies!

China has a lot of problems to fix. It is an industrial, and yet also a semi-feudal agrarian society. It's difficult to have stability with a democracy there- even the united states didn't have "full democracy" until the late 1800s. Initially the US didn't trust the non-landowning peasants to vote- how can the US expect other countries which lack so-called alleged "sophisticated" people to allow everyone to vote?

another problem- China's judicial system is terrible. The Judges aren't ex-lawyers, they're ex-military who don't really understand the law, but they certainly understand stability and discipline. Over 95% of people who go to court are found guilty. The judicial system is key in this. If china can enforce and understand the real laws, then you can have justice. Without that, the country would be chaos.

But good news- as china has beocme more affluent, more rights have been given. The 2007 property law is deeply flawed, but it is a step in the right direction.

Also, although China's consitition guarantees even more rights than most western constitutions do- the one issue that has more prominence than all is "stability." Imagine China now as the United States under the Patriot Act if it were implemented to the full extent of its provisions.

China is too strong for the world to stand up to them. Yeah sure. I'm quaking in my boots in China.

Well. I think the issue is that China is finally strong enough that it's not worth waging a war against them- it wouldn't end well for anyone involved. China's military hardware isn't as good as Western, and neither is their training- yes. But it doesnt' necessarily need to be.

The chinese are aggressively planning attacks that strike at:
1.) C4I The Communications infrastructure
(Wonder why all the anti-satellite test stuff in 2007? But that's not the extent of their plans... since if they blow up too many satellites they damage their own communications and television and enrage other countries [due to floating space dust that will destroy other countries' satellites.] The chinese have extensively studied the US-Serbia conflicts of 96 and 99, and realize that the US struck first at Serbia's C4I and missiles. Thus they have hid their missiles in mountains and reinforced their own C4I bunkers. Theoretically fighting china in 08 is much different that it would have been in 99.)
2.) Economic Warfare
(The Chinese have not been succeeding as well in developing this. Currency warfare would slightly damage the US, but only temporarily for the time of a day or so until other countries buy in. The US government has analyzed this probability and found it wanting.)
3.) Cyber-Terror.
(This is the big one. China has the largest and best trained cyberwarfare division. It could wreak havoc with financial systems that are unguarded, or energy systems that put information on line, hundreds of credit card numbers could be stolen- basically the US could be wiped back to the stone age in terms of data. The big corporations have a lot of this backed up every day, thankfully- but at least limitedly, this could cause panic- and almost certainly SOME information would be forever wiped out. It's difficult to fully quantify the threat from cyber-warfare because to a large degree, it hasn't happened before. Chinese hackers were humiliated in the last 2 cyber wars it got into with the US and Taiwan, but that was before 2003. Times change, and Chinese are much more computer literate now, and quite simply- there are more of them.)
4.) Sabotauge
(Poisoning the water supply. Traditional chinese warfare device. All they need to do is poison 1-3 to make it cause mass panic in america or europe. Poison in pharmaceuticals and other things in the supply chain could also be used against enemies- a rational government wouldn't use them, but a hypernationalist one might.)

What the Chinese don't count on is the chinese force doctrine seems designed to : 1.) Overwhelm with massive deterrant force.... won't actually deter the Americans from responding. As Pearl Harbor demonstrated, Americans will respond. The Chinese really DO NOT REALIZE THIS because it's not how they think.

If China-US were to quarrel, the chinese strategy is to overwhelm US bases that are encircling their country- from the Central Asian bases, to Guam, to S. Korea, and Japan. they are willing to use limited nuclear delivery capability to destroy US battle groups if necessary. (Especially necessary probably since they currently lack the air power to do much.) However, if the Chinese wreak havoc with newly Satellite directed US airplanes, or if they hack into banks, if they shut down consumer websites, etc. Then the chaos that would ensue in America would be something like that in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. WHY? Even if no rioting, Imagine 200 million people getting on their cellphones to call their banks, their congresspeople, etc. Which would overwhelm cellphone towers. Then America's businesses would have to shut down... and the speculative game can go on.

In a war like that, it's obvious, the US has the better quality troops and vehicles and is FINALLY belatedly developing a new Cyberwar command.

But it's not obvious that the US could win. The US can't occupy China. The US probably can't even occupy Beijing unless it wants to kill a lot of people. No one would see the US as liberators.

The best thing the US has going for it is that if China did XYZ that the rest of the world would likely be on the US's side. But after President Bush's failed policies, even that's not certain.

I know the numbers. China has 20 years to make their mark on the world, and I fully expect them to do whatever it takes in the next 20 years to accomplish their goals.

Well, I'm glad you know the 20 year thing. Out of curiosity, where did you figure that out? I've come to the conclusion that China's "window of opportunity" is between 2011-2025... because around 2025, the weight of the elderly and environmental problems becomes so harsh that even if they want to strike out against enemies, they will likely be too overwhelmed with internal problems and unrest to do so. Though between 2011-2025, an outside war might be sought as a "rallying effect" to bring the people together and make them forget about internal problems.

China will learn as did everyone else. I am expecting a war, just as Germany did in the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th. They are in a bad position at the moment, and the writing is in the wall. If I were Chinese, I would be responding the same way.

Interestingly enough, a fair amount of chinese also expect a war.

Honestly, I think the West should stay out of anything to do with Taiwan- but then again Chiense force strategy doesnt' seem to be for an amphibious invasion of the island. That's not really practical. China seems determined to win Taiwan's hearts and minds, or failing that, launch a denial strategy of missiles, air raids and sea blockade and cyberterror and economic warfare and get them to surrender before the US allies can arrive (and it will take days for US battlefleets to arrive.).

I understand that China is in a bad way, and I'm not particularly shocked by China. I am challenging them to act in a way I know they are capable. I don't see what's wrong with doing so, and I think they are very able to 'survive Christianity' so to speak.

Well, they certainly could survive Christianity, but when the fundamentalist Koreans, for example, are considered- it's obvious why China doesn't want that sort of all-encompassing Christianity that challenges the cult of Mao and the cult of State-worship (which has been degrading a LOT in recent years). You live in Texas right? Look at the radical sects that exist there- the Branch Davidians, and the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints. the Chinese certainly don't want that.

[Datajack Franit]

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