Should your country boycott the Olympics?

[DaShi]

It wouldn't be one on one or a manageably small number. Chinese would never fight under those circumstances. And usually don't have to.

[Bosh]

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=3wT4scEwMIc

Huge mob of pro-Chinese demonstrators chased someone into a hotel lobby yesterday and beat the crap out of him. They also threw a rock in the face of a photographer.

Lovely. ****ing barbarians.

[Alinestra Covelia]

It's weird how the Tibetans can riot and get international sympathy. And when the Chinese riot against anybody except their own government, it's grounds for writing them off as barbarians.

[Kuciwalker]

The Tibetans are rioting in their own country. That's a big part of it.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The Tibetans are rioting in their own country. That's a big part of it.

...they demonstrated in the countries in exile, too. The Chinese exchange students at my law school don't condone violence, but they were very shocked at how hostile the other nations were towards China about this.

Either way, I'm not interested in starting another argument over details. I just wanted to try to bring a little balance back to the discussion - take it or leave it as you wish.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
...they demonstrated in the countries in exile, too. The Chinese exchange students at my law school don't condone violence, but they were very shocked at how hostile the other nations were towards China about this.

Either way, I'm not interested in starting another argument over details. I just wanted to try to bring a little balance back to the discussion - take it or leave it as you wish.

Oh please. The Chinese in this instance have acted like a bunch of thugs. They need to keep their totalitarian tendencies on their own shores, not ours. Our governments need to inform the Chinese embassies that they won't be allowed to act with impunity.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
It's weird how the Tibetans can riot and get international sympathy. And when the Chinese riot against anybody except their own government, it's grounds for writing them off as barbarians.

I haven't heard of any Tibetans hurting anyone in any of these torch demonstrations. Chinese seem to be getting very angry at some French guy for trying to yank the torch away from an athelete, so I assume that's the worst they have to complain of.

I don't know what's gone on in other countries, but here in Seoul our local Red Guard continent has:
-chased people into hotel lobbies and had a whole mob kick the crap out of them.
-hit a photographer in the face with a rock and was then hospitalized.
-thrown large numbers of full water bottles at people.
-tearing Tiben flags out of people's hands and punching them.

Demonstrating in one's own country is one thing, being a foreigner in someone else's country and beating up locals for daring to express their opinion is something entirely different.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Bosh
-tearing Tiben flags out of people's hands and punching them.

They punched teh flags?

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by DanS
Oh please. The Chinese in this instance have acted like a bunch of thugs. They need to keep their totalitarian tendencies on their own shores, not ours. Our governments need to inform the Chinese embassies that they won't be allowed to act with impunity.

So every time some football hooligans from the UK get out of hand in a European football match, it's a political demonstration to further their monarchistic tendencies? Or is it a group of individuals who have taken their nationalistic feelings too far? I'd say in this hypothetical and in this case, it's the latter.

The individuals have been badly behaved, and they do not have the support of the vast majority of Chinese citizens. Generally though among Chinese I've spoken to, there does seem to be a feeling of being discriminated against by the outside world. The students at my school ask why Americans seem to dislike China and why they're trying to ruin the Olympics for them.

Clearly a misunderstanding, but I think that prejudices and misconceptions on both sides are feeding this.

In the same way as a foreigner discriminating against an American for the US gov't's decision to go to war in Iraq might be misguided, I think it's an overly simplistic thing to link the behavior of Chinese citizens to the government and vice versa.

The Chinese government has ill-planned and discriminatory policies in place in Tibet. This does not mean that the average Chinese citizen wishes to oppress Tibetans. (In fact the majority of the temple restoration funds for Tibetan Lamaist temples comes from private Chinese fundraisers.) Likewise, there's been a backlash against the torch relay in foreign countries, and the sizable overseas Chinese community likely felt it was a personal nationalist challenge. Their reaction is excessive and ill thought out: instead of equalizing the image hit, I think they're just going to add to it. But then again, for reasons I've stated elsewhere on these forums, I thought the torch protests were similarly unnecessary and ill-advised. When you get to issues like nationalism and reputation, it's a vicious circle mechanic, not a virtuous one - a single questionable act can set off a spiral of reprisals and counter-riots that doesn't leave the authorities on either side with any graceful way to reverse their entrenchment. (A similar fragility surrounded the Ireland peace process in the UK, which they succeeded in resolving. Not so successful in Israel and Palestine though.)

You can be fairly sure the Chinese government itself would not be particularly happy with the rioting - it views this entire Olympics exercise as a sign of its modernization and its place at the table, internationally speaking. (And the government in the past has usually let an anti-foreigner riot go on for a few days and then clamped down hard.) These riots are largely out of its control, and the same headaches that it had in finding a way to deal with Tibet are now facing the countries where these overseas Chinese are rioting. How do you deal with a restive ethnic minority in this day and age in a tactful manner? Is there a tactful manner to do so? Does the local authority have the diplomatic patience and political will (which can be hard to find if the ethnic majority is also upset and calling for reprisals) to do so?

Just a few thoughts on the subject. Clearly a very complicated issue, and I don't pretend to have answers. :/

[DanS]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
In the same way as a foreigner discriminating against an American for the US gov't's decision to go to war in Iraq might be misguided, I think it's an overly simplistic thing to link the behavior of Chinese citizens to the government and vice versa.

This is where what you are saying becomes bull****. The government of China is actively encouraging this thuggery. It's coming straight from the embassies.

[Wezil]

It's still a misunderstanding Dan. The embassy said "quiet" but the protestors thought they said "riot".

I'm tired of the "poor misunderstood Chinese" line as well. We understand them all too well methinks.

[DinoDoc]

Can someone explain to me why other countries are allowing a Chinese paramilitary force to guard the torch relay?

[Wezil]

It makes "Grab the Torch" more fun for the rest of us.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by Wezil
I'm tired of the "poor misunderstood Chinese" line as well. We understand them all too well methinks.

Either way I'd say within 20 years or so, the country will have assimilated economically with the rest of the world. By that time they may have begun to assimilate culturally and politically too. Although I think your statement is premature at this point I think it will become true within our lifetimes.

[Bosh]

The Seoul Chinese embassy was closely involved in organizing the demonstration, through the local Chinese student association as can be seen in the huge numbers of MASSIVE flags that can be seen.

Some pics:

Protestor throwing bottle at people:





Rational discussion of human rights:


Chinese protestors kicing a Korean man off his bike:


And attacking him




Appropriate blood splatter imagery:


Nice cape:


Attacking a Tibean woman


Korean photographer:


Nope no organized Chinese embassy involvement here, the students just happened to have a big collection of huge-ass flags:


Longer youtube clip of thugs chasing person into hotel lobby and kicking the crap out of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wT4scEwMIc