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  • #421
    Like Howard Dean was supposed to have done so?


    Yes, he did (like myself, and a bunch of other people I know). Except, Obama is a ****load more effective at this than Dean. Again, just because you aren't a part of this doesn't mean it's not happening.

    Of course, when some realize he isn't able to (and won't) dismantle the lobbyist culture of D.C., I think some of that will fall away.


    It's not about him, and it's not about only one election. Obama is using this language, "yes, we can" because he realizes it and wants everyone else to.
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

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    • #422


      How many non-politicians have major thoroughfares named after them?


      I would assume a huge number...
      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
      -Bokonon

      Comment

      • #423
        Originally posted by Ramo
        Like Howard Dean was supposed to have done so?


        Yes, he did (like myself, and a bunch of other people I know). Except, Obama is a ****load more effective at this than Dean. Again, just because you aren't a part of this doesn't mean it's not happening.
        Wait, so a handful of people have "come to the light" because of Dean (and seriously, you are saying the HOWARD DEAN brought you to here, really?!), he empowered a bunch of Dems? The only person he really empowered was himself, when he leveraged that campaign into a DNC chair.

        Of course, when some realize he isn't able to (and won't) dismantle the lobbyist culture of D.C., I think some of that will fall away.


        It's not about him, and it's not about only one election. Obama is using this language, "yes, we can" because he realizes it and wants everyone else to.
        He realizes the 'message', and wants to spread it to everyone like a religion, eh? Spread the good word to the people, eh?

        Now all this lobbyists are bad stuff. It isn't like we've never heard this before. And how far has it gotten? HELL, the candidate who won the primary on the other side has been doing the lobbyists are bad stuff for over a decade now! And he even got a law passed (which hasn't really changed all that much, though, as lobbyists found ways to get around it).
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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        • #424
          Wait, so a handful of people have "come to the light" because of Dean (and seriously, you are saying the HOWARD DEAN brought you to here, really?!)


          Dean brought me into activist Democratic politics. The reason why he became DNC chair is that he brought tons of other people in, many of whom became local party leaders and got him elected.


          He realizes the 'message', and wants to spread it to everyone like a religion, eh? The good word, eh?


          As I was saying, you're a complete parody.

          Any person spreading a message or gets a street named after him is an evil cultist.

          Now all this lobbyists are bad stuff. It isn't like we've never heard this before.


          1. Of course it isn't everything. A major element is getting popular participation in the process, which Obama is doing quite effectively.
          2. McCain got burned on this, and is staying far away from anything that looks like public financing of Congressional elections.
          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
          -Bokonon

          Comment

          • #425
            So within a year of losing Iowa (yes, it was that quick), he brought enough ("tons" of other people) party leaders in to elect him? Don't buy that one.

            While Pelosi and Reid didn't like him, plenty of the establishment did, and compared to the other potential candidates, he looked far better. He also had to promise to focus on fundraising and not policy.


            And when people start speaking of a politicians as advancing a message not "about him", sorry I start getting a bit cynical about it. But if you want to buy the lines, go ahead. McCain may have gotten "burned" on McCain-Feingold, but has established himself foremost in the fight against lobbyist culture in Washington, as seen by the fact that he refuses to put in earmarks in budget bills. Regardless, the rest of the legislature and the lobbies are going to prevent any real change on anything.
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

            Comment

            • #426
              Oh noes! Obama is far too popular! It is obvious that nominating a candidate that is popular would be an electoral disaster. The democrats must return to the proud tradition of nominating boring douchebags so we can return to the proud traditions of President Kerry, Gore and Dukakis!

              I'm not the strongest Obama supporter (I've always been "anybody but Hillary" and right now that leaves Obama) but saying that someone having too much popularity is a good reason for a party to not nominate them has to be one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard, right along with everyone in the Clinton camp saying that every state that they don't win doesn't matter.
              Stop Quoting Ben

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              • #427
                I'm pretty much an anyone but Hillary person too. I doubt Obama can bring about radical change but he seems to be less corrupted by the current system then Hillary or McCain and his desire for change and ability to inspire across party lines seems genuine. The kicker is that he's more likely to bring Democrats to the polls, not to motivate Republicans to the polls the way the Hillary hate will, and that Obama is likely to bring a number of independents and centrist Republicans along.

                That's cautious optimism but one based on hard facts.
                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                • #428
                  So within a year of losing Iowa (yes, it was that quick), he brought enough ("tons" of other people) party leaders in to elect him? Don't buy that one.


                  At a local level. They took over the party in many places. This filtered up, and even a few state chairs were offed in the process.

                  He also had to promise to focus on fundraising and not policy.


                  The DNC never focused on policy. Terry McAuliffe was all about fundraising, and he was quite successful at it. Dean's focus was on party-building.

                  McCain may have gotten "burned" on McCain-Feingold, but has established himself foremost in the fight against lobbyist culture in Washington, as seen by the fact that he refuses to put in earmarks in budget bills.


                  Not really. If you completely retreat on policy, that pretty much defines you as not in the forefront of the fight. And as opposed to Obama or Edwards, accepted lobbyist cash in his Pres campaign.
                  Last edited by Ramo; February 14, 2008, 20:34.
                  "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                  -Bokonon

                  Comment

                  • #429
                    I should add that my support for Obama pretty much begins and ends on the premise that he can bring in significantly more members of Congress than Clinton, (and that he's slightly better on the issues, particularly foreigh policy, is part of the reason as well).
                    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                    -Bokonon

                    Comment

                    • #430
                      Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                      I would think naming major streets after a person is quite significant. It seems to indicate adulation of a public figure as dictionary.com defines the term CoP (cult promoting adulation of a ... public figure).
                      Well, I said you were conflating popularity with a "CoP" and now you've just proved it. I have nothing more to add to this argument. If we're going to call everyone who is popular or - god forbid - has streets named after them a cult leader, we've made "cult of personality" so preposterously vague that it lacks any meaning, and there's no point in arguing about the meaningless.
                      Lime roots and treachery!
                      "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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                      • #431
                        saying that someone having too much popularity is a good reason for a party to not nominate them


                        Who in the world has ever said that? Are you suffering from the put words in your opponents' mouth disease?

                        At a local level. They took over the party in many places. This filtered up, and even a few state chairs were offed in the process.


                        It's hard to believe that someone who supposedly had such a presence at a local level was only able to win ONE primary in the 2004 Democratic Primaries, and that being his home state.

                        Not really. If you completely retreat on policy, that pretty much defines you as not in the forefront of the fight. And as opposed to Obama or Edwards, accepted lobbyist cash in his Pres campaign.


                        McCain has still never put earmarks in budget bills.

                        And while Obama hasn't received cash from "lobbying firms", he has gotten a good deal of money from Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, JP Morgan Chase, etc.:

                        OpenSecrets
                        http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.asp?id=N00009638&cycle=2008


                        Hell Goldman Sachs itself has given Obama as much money as lobbying firms have given McCain. I can bet you Goldman lobbies quite a bit on Capitol Hill.
                        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                        Comment

                        • #432
                          Those are employees, not corporations. Comparing the two is completely ridiculous (and I'm sure McCain has received money from people working at investment and banking firms).

                          And as I was saying, I don't think that individual efforts are that important, but on what is actually important - policy, McCain is terrible.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

                          Comment

                          • #433
                            It's hard to believe that someone who supposedly had such a presence at a local level was only able to win ONE primary in the 2004 Democratic Primaries, and that being his home state.


                            The number of party activists is much smaller than the number of voters.
                            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                            -Bokonon

                            Comment

                            • #434
                              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


                              How many non-politicians have major thoroughfares named after them?
                              Hmm... rather depends on how you define politician

                              Anyhow, in Chicago, for example, nearly every president up to Roosevelt has a major street named for him (downtown), whether he was popular or not.

                              The John Quincy Adams cult of personality?
                              <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                              I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                              • #435
                                Presidents aren't politicians? Well, I've heard everything now.
                                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                                Comment

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