Primary Thread 3: Race to Denver

[Ramo]

You're changing the argument. The question was whether getting a major street named after you makes you a cult of personality, not politician.

[Ramo]

I should add that of course Chavez was a politician. So was King and Gandhi and plenty of other activist and labor leaders.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I made the argument in the first place and have stuck to the same one. Politicians get streets named after them all the time. Non-politicians have a much harder time at it. Chavez didn't run for anything. He ran a freaking Union. What, was Jimmy Hoffa a politician?

Same as MLK and Gandhi. Advocating political change doesn't automatically make you a politician (btw, I'd consider both MLK and Gandhi to have significant CoP... interestingly enough Gandhi was mentioned in Living Color's "Cult of Personality" song).

[Ramo]

I made the argument in the first place.

You changed the subject to something completely irrelevant. The argument went like this:

You: "Yes, we can" implies cult.
Cyclo: Caesar Chaves used that slogan.
You: Chavez was a cult leader, and evidence to that effect is that he had a street named after him.

So the premise that you made was that getting a street named after you is evidence that you have a personality cult. Which is totally ridiculous.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ramo
You changed the subject to something completely irrelevant. The argument went like this:

You: "Yes, we can" implies cult.
Cyclo: Caesar Chaves used that slogan.
You: Chavez was a cult leader, and evidence to that effect is that he had a street named after him.

So the premise that you made was that getting a street named after you is evidence that you have a personality cult. Which is totally ridiculous.

Chavez never held any elected political office, meaning that getting streets and schools named after him happens to be a pretty big deal. Ie, the naming of streets thing being evidence of CoP is that it is something unusual (duh!).

Do you not think that Chavez getting a street named after him is more substantial of an act than President Buchanan getting one named after him?

[Ramo]

Chavez got a street for a far better reason they your typical pol. Well respected and important people get more streets than poorly respected or insignificant figures (but there's a bias in favor of pols because pols do the naming). Yeah I know, unbelievable isn't it?

Why is whether or not you're a pol intrinsically have anything to do with the argument? The question is if you're significant and popular.

And big time social activists and labor leaders are definitely pols. They use different levers of power, but both use use popular power and both effect change in public policy. But this would be a completely irrelevant argument to the earlier claim you made, and ultimately it boils down to semantics.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why is whether or not you're a pol intrinsically have anything to do with the argument?

Cause people like James Buchanan and John Quincy Adams get streets named for them simply because they were Presidents of the United States. It just happens that way.

And big time social activists and labor leaders are definitely pols. They use different levers of power, but both use use popular power and both effect change in public policy.

But they aren't politicians. They use popular power to effect change (lobby for change... so more akin to lobbyists).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/politician

pol·i·ti·cian /ˌpɒlɪˈtɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pol-i-tish-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who is active in party politics.
2. a seeker or holder of public office, who is more concerned about winning favor or retaining power than about maintaining principles.
3. a person who holds a political office.
4. a person skilled in political government or administration; statesman or stateswoman.
5. an expert in politics or political government.
6. a person who seeks to gain power or advancement within an organization in ways that are generally disapproved.

Or if you want, elected officials/founders can be used instead.

Though may I add, it is bit disingenuous for folks (maybe not you) to use Reagan's name being used for airports and trade buildings and streets as advancing his CoP, but Chavez's streets are just evidence that he's a popular person. If you want to agree that Reagan doesn't have a CoP, then perhaps an accord can be reached on differing definitions of the term.

[Ramo]

Again:

Chavez got a street for a far better reason they your typical pol. Well respected and important people get more streets than poorly respected or insignificant figures (but there's a bias in favor of pols because pols do the naming). Yeah I know, unbelievable isn't it?

But they aren't politicians. They use popular power to effect change (lobby for change... so more akin to lobbyists).

Yeah, they are. But the point is that they are able to use popular power to change public policy. You know, things like naming streets (which is a pretty effective way, incidentally for elected officials to mollify activists). Crazy, ain't it?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, they are. But the point is that they are able to use popular power to change public policy. You know, things like naming streets (which is a pretty effective way, incidentally for elected officials to mollify activists). Crazy, ain't it?

So your claim is that these streets were named after Chavez so Chavez (or a disciple of his) wouldn't continue to agitate?

[Ramo]

Though may I add, it is bit disingenuous for folks (maybe not you) to use Reagan's name being used for airports and trade buildings and streets as advancing his CoP

Fantastic strawman, there

If you want to agree that Reagan doesn't have a CoP, then perhaps an accord can be reached on differing definitions of the term.

Are you admitting that Reagan was a cultist? Airport's a pretty big deal. Major cult currency, donchaknow?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I thought it was firmly established earlier, Ramo, between Cyclotron and myself that Reagan had/has a Cult of Personality? If you would like to disagree, go ahead.

edit: actually Oerdin and Rufus brought it up (and said there was one) and Cyclotron and I agreed later.

[Ramo]

So your claim is that these streets were named after Chavez so Chavez (or a disciple of his) wouldn't continue to agitate?

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.

Jeez, I can't believe you're making argument. Are you stoned?

To anyone who is genuinely interested, incidentally, there's a fantastic poem that was written about King.

Now that he is safely dead
Let us praise him
build monuments to his glory
sing hosannas to his name.
Dead men make
such convenient heroes: They
cannot rise
to challenge the images
we would fashion from their lives.
And besides,
it is easier to build monuments
than to make a better world.

[Ramo]

I thought it was firmly established earlier, Ramo, between Cyclotron and myself that Reagan had/has a Cult of Personality? If you would like to disagree, go ahead.

I'm not particularly interested in the question. It'd come down to semantics.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ramo
Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.

But the point is that they are able to use popular power to change public policy. You know, things like naming streets (which is a pretty effective way, incidentally for elected officials to mollify activists).

Yes... actually that is (naming streets is an effective way to mollify activists, which is something that leaders like Chavez are able to use popular power to change public policy).

But if you want to claim I'm putting words in your mouth as you so frequently do with your opponents, I'd like to see where I read your post incorrectly.

[Ramo]

It's a question of degree. The least committed portion of the activist community (i.e. not Chavez) could be mollified into submission. And appropriating the symbolism of dissent is generally a pretty effective way for the status quo to maintain dominance.