More Religious Nutters

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Blake


Actually things DO happen for a reason.

And Buddhism, is about figuring out those REASONS.

One of the core principles of Buddhism is "dependent origination" which is "all effects which occur, do so based on causes and conditions".

The 5 things which cause effects are

Kamma
Laws of Nature
Seasonal Changes and Climate
Genetic Inheritance
Will of mind

For example, you feel cold because of the climate. The cold feeling arises due to the climate.

Kamma isn't supernatural, it's just like guilt and stuff, fetters on your mind.
You feel bad (guilt), this arises based on your past, when you did things you knew weren't good. The bad feeling arises, because the conditions remind you of what you did. (cause: Bad action. Condition: Reminder of past. Effect: Feeling bad).


You can obviously do nothing about Nature, the Climate and Genetics - except try to stay out of it's way. But there's a lot you can do in the kamma and force of mind department, for example, bad kamma can be avoided by not doing bad things which cause guilt and stuff, so simple!


Buddhism is of course unique in that it strives to actually explain all things which occur, in a way which helps you understand what you can do to prevent them arising, if anything. This is wisdom - knowing what do to and what can be done, and leaving that stuff which can't be done well enough alone, it's not your business.

What people often look for in religion, is self-centric ego-pleasing reasons for things. For example, to believe that some bad event is God trying to teach you a lesson, is clearly immensely ego-gratifying. Or to believe that some ritual can keep you safe from your kamma, from the bad things you've done.

So you are saying that if something bad happens to someone it's because they did something bad to someone else? Are you serious?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Probalby not (actually definately not) but what has that to do with the reasons why a religious based town is offended by having the area code 666 ?

You just said that a town would only object to 666 on religious grounds and yet you accept that 666 can have symbolism for non religious people.

If the people in the article say they object purely because of the stigma and the imagery why do you reject that outright and say it must be because they are deeply religious? Could it be that they simply recognize the symbolism as do metal bands and ID software and they don't want that particular symbolism in their phone number?

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I just said you had a psychological problem, not a psychological disorder as defined by the APA. I'm also not saying that you are crazy like Agy is.

I'm less crazy than Aggy? You do like to damn with faint praise, don't you? Seriously, though, from a psychological perspective "disorder" and "problem" are synonymous.

Actually I prayed for peace of mind. I did get peace of mind, but it's obvious that it wasn't due to prayer, but to my acceptance of things. If it were due to prayer it would have happened more timely. And I still have psychological problems due to obscessions that haven't been resolved.

And you blame religion for that? No offense, but I'm not sure how I'm the one acting in existential bad faith here. Also, your words remind me of Screwtape's: "Don't forget to use the 'heads I win, tails you lose' argument. If the thing he prays for doesn't happen, then that is one more proof petitionary prayers don't work; if it does happen, he will, of course, be able to see some of the physical causes which led up to it, and 'therefore it would have happened anyway', and thus a granted prayer becomes just as good a proof as a denied one that prayers are ineffective."

Okay, so you don't believe that good is allmighty? How do you explain suffering? Who created bad people?

Bad people choose to be bad. Suffering is the material consequence of sin. God is almighty, but yields us the power to make bad choices if we so please. Pretty basic theology.

[Elok]

Oh, and a very old, tired joke:

A hurricane is coming, sure to flood the area and kill everyone in it. The army sends a truck around to evacuate people, and it comes to the house of a man who refuses to leave. He tells them "I'm a Christian. I have faith that God will save me." What can they do? They drive off and leave him there.

The flood comes and the first floor of the man's house is filled with water. The Coast Guard sends a boat by to pick him up, but again he says, "I don't need the help. I have faith that God will save me."

The waters rise some more, and he's stuck sitting on his roof in the wind and rain. During a lull in the storm, a helicopter flies overhead and lets down a ladder, but he waves it away. He's a Christian, God will save him. And then the waters rise some more and he drowns.

He reaches the Pearly Gates prepared to give God an earful. "Lord, I had faith in you. Why did you let me down that way?"

God looks confused. "What do you mean? I sent you a truck, I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter. What did you expect?"

[Perfection]

Originally posted by Elok
Bad people choose to be bad. Suffering is the material consequence of sin. God is almighty, but yields us the power to make bad choices if we so please. Pretty basic theology.

Pretty bad too, in my view. Plenty of good people seem to suffer more then bad people.

I mean, what sins are infants thrown in dumpsters suffering for? What about birth defects?

[Elok]

I said consequence, not punishment. If you drive drunk, running over an old lady in the crosswalk is a consequence of that, not any kind of punishment for the old lady. Same thing here. We don't know how exactly (we aren't told and speculation is impossible), but in some weird way sin has screwed up the world. At least, I believe that's the OC's position. Ask JM or BK and they may very well give you a different answer.

[Perfection]

Who is OC?

Do you disavow this position?

[Perfection]

I would think that sin being the cause of suffering is also a pretty weird belief . I mean how does sin correspond to birth defects and natural disasters?

[Elok]

Orthodox Church, which I belong to. I never really think about it, TBH, because the majority of problems humans face at the moment are caused by other humans. We could cope just fine with natural disasters and diseases if we were nicer. So you could say I don't particularly have a position.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, not at all. AFAIK, the same understanding is here too.

I'm quite fond of CS Lewis and his screwtape letters also. Sin hurts people in the world through our own actions, in this men are responsible.

God does step in and intervene, but because we have free will, he permits us to sin. When we do sin, we hurt the other people around us.

Now the other thing, is that 'suffering' is not synonymous with sin. Job suffered, yet he did not sin. People who did not sin, suffer from the consequences of other people's sin. God even tells us to rejoice in our suffering for such is the mark of his true followers that they will be despised and cursed in the world beset by sin.

Perfection, the OC is the Orthodox church, the 'Right' believers if you know your Greek.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Kidicious
So you are saying that if something bad happens to someone it's because they did something bad to someone else? Are you serious?

Reading comprehension skills ftw.

That isn't buddhist kamma. It is the laymans understanding of Karma but it's certainly not buddhist kamma.

Layman understanding of karma:
If you do something bad, the universe will kick your ass.
If you do something good, the universe will reward you.


Buddhist Kamma is more specific.
If you intentionally do something bad, you kick your own ass in the end.


Bad things can happen for many reasons. An earthquake can demolish your house. That isn't kamma, it's just nature.
But if an earthquake demolishing your house results in a fear of earthquakes, that fear is kamma. It's due to a delusional belief arising from experience "OMG! The earth is out to get me!".

[Elok]

Originally posted by Perfection
I would think that sin being the cause of suffering is also a pretty weird belief . I mean how does sin correspond to birth defects and natural disasters?

Why does it necessarily have to? We're talking about an aspect of reality humans have no direct experience with. There's no reason it should follow the same sort of rules as the physical world we know of, and even if it did, quantum mechanics has shown us that those get pretty screwy too, no?

[Jon Miller]

I think that pollution and it's impact gives a good idea of how sin works to effect the world (and is a good example).

JM

[Elok]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Perfection, the OC is the Orthodox church, the 'Right' believers if you know your Greek.

Technically it's "right glory" or "right praise."

[Ben Kenobi]

Well that would make us very sinister so I suppose that's appropriate.