Evil Estonians Crack Down on Helpless Russian Minority

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Lancer
Show them the door.

Many of the ethnic Russians in Estonia are born there, yet are denied Estonian nationality, meaning they have no citizenship of any country. As always, things aren't as simple as some might think or hope.

[Jarouik]

Originally posted by Solver

The point is that since the statue has become such a symbol for the Russian minority in Estonia, why anger them purposefully by moving it? The government knew it was going to cause trouble.

I highly doubt that many of the rioters who were involved in this looting and violence actually care about what the statue symbolizes or its historical meaning. Part of the ethnic Russian minority that lives in Estonia actually doesn't like the country and is loyal to Russia. The Russian government says that it doesn't like the idea of moving the statue. Therefore, these people protest over it - not because of some historical meaning, but because Russia doesn't want it to happen.

Unsurprisingly, most rioters also were young people...

Of course they don't care about it. They are just looking for an excuse to riot, prompted by the Russian government. The point is, why give them that excuse?

[Jarouik]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Escalating it to war status is of course stupid, but similary is suppressing debate about the subject.

So you think the riots were "debate"? I think debate is what we are doing, and nobody is suppressing that.

[Jarouik]

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
They should have moved the monument when all the statues of Lenin were toppled 15 years ago. Then it would have just gone with the flow.

Yep, I agree. There is nothing wrong with removing soviet war memorials, I just think the Estonian goverment picked the worst possible way of doing it.

As regards other soviet memorials in Eastern Europe, e.g. Germany, not everybody supports removing them, though many naturally do. In East Germany, for example, people look back to the communist times with a mix of nostalgia and shame.

There were some aspects to the totalitarian regime people liked, e.g. a sense of unity and community nowadays lacking. I write this not to support soviet oppression in any way, but as an explanation of some people's feelings. Therefore, not all remnants in e.g. Berlin have been removed - people don't want it. Similarly, there are statues of old kings and leaders all around Europe, however bloody their regime might have been - just take Leopold II of Belgium.

[Jarouik]

Originally posted by Wycoff
I agree with the Estonians on this. The monuments to the USSR that dot Eastern Europe have always striken me as inappropriate. The USSR wasn't a liberator; it was a conqueror. The Red Army raped and pilliaged its way across Eastern Europe and ultimately imposed Communist totalitarianism for 60 years. That regime is no more deserving of memorialization than the 3rd Reich.

The next monument that should go is the Soviet war memorial at the Tiergarden in Berlin. Its original purpose was to reinforce to the Germans that they were conquered. That lesson has been well learned. Now it serves no other purpose than to bestow upon the Soviets an underserved sense of moral superiority. It's bizarre to see a statute dedicated glorifying the USSR two kilos away from the Berlin wall, which is the real monument to the glories of the Soviet system. If I were German, I'd want the Tiergarten soviet memorial replaced with a more appropriate memorial. I think we'd all be better off with a positive memorial dedicated to peace between Germany and Russia rather than the current monument glorifying a morally bankrupt system.

The Estonian decision is getting some support elsewhere in Eastern Europe. According to this article, a Polish political group wants to remove Soviet war memorials: http://en.rian.ru/world/20070428/64633570.html

Considering the state of Polish politics today, I would not say they lend much weight when it comes to morale. It seems that the totalitarian regime that occupied Poland is slowly being replaced by a fundamentalist nationalist christian regime with bad track record regarding minorities. If we really want reconciliation in Europe after the Cold war, the best thing to do is *not* let the pendulum swing to the opposite end and destroy all memory of there ever being a Soviet Union. This breeds conflict both within eastern European countries and with EU and Russia - I think the Russian government is doing enough to sharpen the conflict without our participating in it. I just dislike reforming the history to suit the winners so that all trace of earlier powers is erased. However dictatorial it was, Russians and many other Europeans don't see the Soviet Union as the Evil Empire, considering Stalin and his horrors were discredited already soon after his death.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Jarouik


Considering the state of Polish politics today, I would not say they lend much weight when it comes to morale. It seems that the totalitarian regime that occupied Poland is slowly being replaced by a fundamentalist nationalist christian regime with bad track record regarding minorities. If we really want reconciliation in Europe after the Cold war, the best thing to do is *not* let the pendulum swing to the opposite end and destroy all memory of there ever being a Soviet Union. This breeds conflict both within eastern European countries and with EU and Russia - I think the Russian government is doing enough to sharpen the conflict without our participating in it. I just dislike reforming the history to suit the winners so that all trace of earlier powers is erased.

One could argue that the monument itself was distorting history in the first place since it reflects the official soviet propaganda line which just wiped out any "unpleasant" aspects of soviet rule in the Baltics.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Wycoff

The next monument that should go is the Soviet war memorial at the Tiergarden in Berlin. Its original purpose was to reinforce to the Germans that they were conquered. That lesson has been well learned. Now it serves no other purpose than to bestow upon the Soviets an underserved sense of moral superiority. It's bizarre to see a statute dedicated glorifying the USSR two kilos away from the Berlin wall, which is the real monument to the glories of the Soviet system. If I were German, I'd want the Tiergarten soviet memorial replaced with a more appropriate memorial. I think we'd all be better off with a positive memorial dedicated to peace between Germany and Russia rather than the current monument glorifying a morally bankrupt system.

I wonder if there are monuments to the western allies in Germany as well or if instead they showed a bit more tact to the locals in that regard?

[Tattila the Hun]

Heh, they should just make new plaques for them, "This statue commemorates the Soviet Occupation, done by soviet soldiers just like the one pictured."

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Jarouik
If we really want reconciliation in Europe after the Cold war, the best thing to do is *not* let the pendulum swing to the opposite end and destroy all memory of there ever being a Soviet Union. This breeds conflict both within eastern European countries and with EU and Russia - I think the Russian government is doing enough to sharpen the conflict without our participating in it. I just dislike reforming the history to suit the winners so that all trace of earlier powers is erased. However dictatorial it was, Russians and many other Europeans don't see the Soviet Union as the Evil Empire, considering Stalin and his horrors were discredited already soon after his death.

I disagree on a couple of points. My first point is that I don't think that the Soviet Union deserves to be memorialized, even if we assume that the USSR after Stalin was benign (an assumption that I reject, BTW).

Think of it this way: imagine a world in which the Nazis won WW2. Hitler has a breakdown towards the end of the war and becomes extremely paranoid. He dies in the early 50s after having eliminated most of his most prominent subordinates (Göring, Goebbels, Himmler, Borman, Heydritch, etc). After Hitler's death, the next Führer is Admiral Dönitz, who reveals many of Hitler's crimes, shuts down the extermination camps, repudiates many of Hitler's doctrines, and destroys most Hitler iconography. The Third Reich becomes more moderate, but still is a military dictatorship lording over conquered lands. The Reich collapses in 1990. Would it be appropriate to have memorials in Estonia commemorating the Nazi invasion and 60 year occupation on the grounds that they expelled the evil Stalinist Russians?

My second objection is that I don't think honoring the USSR helps ease Cold War conflicts. Allowing the Russians to pretend that the Soviet regime was somehow morally acceptable encourages Russian reactionism. Unlike the Germans, they're not ashamed of their past. They should be. (Actually, I don't think that ashamed is the right word. I don't think that the Germans or the Russians of today should be ashamed of the actions of their ancestors. I jsut think that both groups should look on their actions and unequivocally say that their ancestors were wrong).

A better approach would be to celebrate the friendship and peace between Germans and Slavs rather than to celebrate the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. It's more constructive, and permanent peace seems to be easier to achieve when neither side has some artificial moral highground. Cold War healing can begin in earnest only when neither side feels aggrieved anymore.

My third objection is that taking down memorials in no way erases the memory of the USSR anymore than taking down the Nazi statues and memorials did. What down the USSR memorials does is simply stop the public glorification of a regime that doesn't deserve it. It helps change the public discourse in a way that I feel would better facilitate peace.

[BeBMan]

Re Soviet memorials in Ger - there was an agreement that they would not be removed by Germany when the Soviets left the country.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by BeBro
Re Soviet memorials in Ger - there was an agreement that they would not be removed by Germany when the Soviets left the country.

Interesting. Is there a time frame, or is it an agreement in perpetuity?

[BeBMan]

The latter. It was part of a greater package of ....hm "incentives" for Russia (IIRC then still USSR) to make them give up opposition regarding the (re)unification.

[ElTigre]

The Tiergarten War Memorial is also a war cemetery. As such it is subject to a bilateral treaty between Germany in Russia, signed in 1992: they take care of German war graves in Russia, we take take of their graves in Germany. War graves may not be removed.

Of course it's also a (rather ugly) memorial celebrating the Soviet victory. So what? Just point out the historic context in which it was build, and let future generation see how Germans/Russians deal(t) with their past. Even if the intention for the memorial is obsolete, it is still invaluable at demonstrating what had happened in Berlin before and after 1945. Think of it as a museum and cemetery rather than just a public display of Soviet propaganda.

Same goes for the memorial in Estonia, just without the cemetery part.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by ElTigre
The Tiergarten War Memorial is also a war cemetery. As such it is subject to a bilateral treaty between Germany in Russia, signed in 1992: they take care of German war graves in Russia, we take take of their graves in Germany. War graves may not be removed.

Of course it's also a (rather ugly) memorial celebrating the Soviet victory. So what? Just point out the historic context in which it was build, and let future generation see how Germans/Russians deal(t) with their past. Even if the intention for the memorial is obsolete, it is still invaluable at demonstrating what had happened in Berlin before and after 1945. Think of it as a museum and cemetery rather than just a public display of Soviet propaganda.

I thought that the Soviet cemetary memorial was in Treptower park, and that the Tiergarten monument was just a monument.

[ElTigre]

I had to look it up myself, but wikipedia.de states that it is not only a memorial, but also a (second) Soviet war cemetery in Berlin. A third one is apparently in Berlin-Pankow.

EDIT: Found another source. 2.500 Soviet soldiers are buried beneath the Tiergarten Memorial.

Link