Fantasy Hockey - The Reckoning

[Kontiki]

Hopefully, we've got Pekka in now. I've been chatting with him via PM and in another thread. I think the main issue he had was not really understanding how the league worked. Seems like we've straightened that out now.

[Sparrowhawk]

Ummm......having admitted I have done the same thing as NYE, I am reluctant to criticize him for doing it (I picked up Kolzig to try and make sure I got in my three games for Goalies when Fleury was listed as hurt and Toskala was on the wrong end of a three game week with Nabokov getting two of the games and I picked up Rob Neidermayer to try and catch Joncha on a sunday when I needed one goal to catch him but neither of us had players playing otherwise). I didn't think anything was wrong with either of my uses and I suppose it wasn't technically against any written rule. If we agree by majority not to take advantage of this option I think we can police ourselves and don't need to "change" any of the rules but it will open us up for problems I suspect in that who decides what is a legit pick up and drop and when it is manipulating the system?

Therefore I am indifferent, leave it open as an option and I will take advantage of it, I am among those without a life that spends way too much time online. If we close off the option I am more then willing to respect the votes and will stop using this option, but I will question even move I need to make...........Is this within the spirit of the rules of the fantasy league? Being new to fantasy leagues I have no simple way to judge this, and suspect that many of us would have different opinions as to what constitutes abuse of the system.

The earlier discussion between Hot Mustard and Asher about players being picked up and dropped on the same day comes to mind........Asher's response was that he was seeing how various combinations fit with the upcoming schedule I believe. Surely this would only apply on a weekly basis and require the picking up/dropping of players on a regular basis as well? Though not daily is this not still a problem?

I look forward to a decision but am largely indifferent as to which way the decision goes.

/me

[joncha]

Meh. It's a tactic I don't use, but I think it's a valid one. If your purpose is to block other people from picking up players by constantly putting them on to the waivers, then you're being a jackass. If you're doing it to grab an extra stat, then you're just managing your team. You may end up with a team full of mediocre players at the end of the year, but that's your problem.

Come to think of it, I would grab a rent-a-player if, for example, I knew I wouldn't be able to get my goalie starts otherwise.

[Asher]

The question isn't if it's valid (which I find is questionable, I don't see GMs in the NHL picking players up for a single game so I don't think it fits in the spirit of a fantasy hockey team). The question is if it's a fair tactic given that different people in this league have different time they can commit to the game, some more than others.

It's one thing to have to grab a goalie to get enough goalie games (particularly when hit by an IR or other injury), it's quite another to regularly do this. nye has 2 more goalie games than me this week and he keeps rotating in more goalies to try to win the category.

I don't think it's fair because I believe I drafted a better team than he did. If I drop some of my players to rotate, I fear they're going to get picked up by someone else. NYE's bad draft gives him a benefit in that he can overwhelm people by rotating players constantly to win by "brute force" of more skater/goalie games, which is pretty unfair IMO. It's a "valid tactic" to compensate for a bad draft in one respect, it's an unfair exploitation of the system in another...

[joncha]

If we allow the adding of rent-a-players in one case, we should allow them in any. Ultimately the overuse of it will be self-defeating, so I see no need for the league to do anything about it.

[Sparrowhawk]

Edit: I was answering Asher's post two above this one. Joncha cross posted with me

But arn't we then penalizing a player for the rest of the season for drafting badly in August / September? (before the preseason games even started if I recall correctly?)

It seems that person has the best chance of catching up to others by using this tactic and more power to them for doing so, I assume they would hang on to a pick up who would benefit them for the remainder of the season but even if they don't it would hurt them to continue to use that roster spot with rotating players who as someone pointed out 20-30 posts ago will find that the available pool of good pickups will become depleted as the other players hang on to their players.

I suspect it comes down to whether or not we are going to penalize someone for spending too much time online.

/me

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
I suspect it comes down to whether or not we are going to penalize someone for spending too much time online.

* Sparrowhawk

Err. What?

How does this penalize someone from spending too much time online? It removes excessive amounts of time online as a considerable edge in winning the hockey pool.

And, IMO, how much time you spend online should not have a huge impact on how well you can do in a hockey pool.

But arn't we then penalizing a player for the rest of the season for drafting badly in August / September? (before the preseason games even started if I recall correctly?)

I had probably the worst draft overall last season (I had what, 5 Flames players?). I ended up in 2nd overall in the regular season because I made good, smart trades throughout the season. I never used players for single games.

The dumbest tactic I think that can be used, hockey-wise, but it works by virtue of the shotgun-theory of skater/goalie games.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Asher
I had probably the worst draft overall last season (I had what, 5 Flames players?). I ended up in 2nd overall in the regular season because I made good, smart trades throughout the season.

lol Huet for Kariya LOL

[Kontiki]

But it's only a benefit if he comes out ahead because of it. There's no guarantee that picking up a player to squeeze one game out of him is going to produce any points, and it may even negatively impact his +/- and/or save percentage. The fact that you're up 5-3 on him shows it's not necessarily a winning proposition. I'd also point out that he still has 9 of his 14 original draft picks (including Vyborny) and that of 5 he's dropped along the way, 4 have been picked up by other players, so he's SOL on them. He also has the same number of points in the standings as me. Doesn't seem to be a major leg up.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kontiki
But it's only a benefit if he comes out ahead because of it. There's no guarantee that picking up a player to squeeze one game out of him is going to produce any points, and it may even negatively impact his +/- and/or save percentage. The fact that you're up 5-3 on him shows it's not necessarily a winning proposition. I'd also point out that he still has 9 of his 14 original draft picks (including Vyborny) and that of 5 he's dropped along the way, 4 have been picked up by other players, so he's SOL on them. He also has the same number of points in the standings as me. Doesn't seem to be a major leg up.

He hasn't been doing the rotating player thing regularly until this week.

And yeah, it has been helping him. He's up in goalie stats because of his goalie-rotating/dropping/adding spree this week. His goalie stats sucked so he tried to get as many goalie games in as possible to offset it.

And I realize he has Vyborny now, but only because he dropped him to get 2 more skater games in from rent-a-players while he was between games, then re-added him.

Again, it rubs me the wrong way. The idea is to build a fantasy team, make changes along the way, but the idea is still to build a team. And you don't build a team by whoring in as many players as possible to win by brute force.

[Sparrowhawk]

I think you answered your own question.

If someone spends "excessive amounts of time online" in order to gain "a considerable edge in winning the hockey pool" then by removing this option you penalize them by taking away their ability to do so.

As for whether or not this should have a "huge" impact on how well you can do in a hockey pool it is as you state your opinion. I think what we are looking for is whether or not it should have "any" impact.

I don't think the majority of those replying, myself included think this will have a "huge" impact either way we decide. The question is whether it should have "any" impact.

/me

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
I think you answered your own question.

If someone spends "excessive amounts of time online" in order to gain "a considerable edge in winning the hockey pool" then by removing this option you penalize them by taking away their ability to do so.

This doesn't penalize them, because it levels the playing field.

I don't think you're using the word "penalize" correctly...you act like it's a god-given right that people who are on 24/7 can constantly rotate players, and removing this is "penalizing" them.

It's my stance that this is not "proper" behaviour in a league where the idea is to build a hockey team. It's exploiting the fact that some people are not able or willing (due to time constraints IRL) to do the same thing. It's giving players who do this an unfair advantage, removing this unfair advantage does not penalize them...it levels the field.

[Asher]

To be honest, if we're not going to take a stance against this I'm going to start doing it, too.

And others will surely follow when they realize they can get more points by doing it.

Next thing you know anyone who has ever scored a single point in the NHL will likely end up on waivers at any given time...which is ridiculous.

A lot of you don't realize the problem right now because only one person is really doing it. Once everyone else starts doing it, the scale of how bad it is for the league will be obvious.

[Kontiki]

Was there a guarantee, or even high probability, that his pick up of Kolzig would help him out in save percentage? Because Markkanen and Budaj certainly didn't help his cause. Nor did they get him a single win.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Was there a guarantee, or even high probability, that his pick up of Kolzig would help him out in save percentage? Because Markkanen and Budaj certainly didn't help his cause. Nor did they get him a single win.

If you're already losing the stats, you have nothing to lose.

Which is why it's an unfair tactic. Once you've got suitably bad stats you can throw lots of goalies at it and get lucky...

It's even worse considering the SHO and W stats have no downside. His sv% was already below mine, so by adding any goalie who would be playing this week he had a chance of a W, SHO, an potentially improving the sv%.

It makes a lot of sense to do that from that perspective, doesn't it?