The Confederate Flag and NASCAR

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
It isn't that though. What McFun says is that 150 years after an event, all people that live in a state south of him is a bigot. Anything north or parallel, they're not.
Well **** that.

see, I love people, never met a stranger..........

I am sorry folks got strung up,castrated,left for dead and treated unfairly.

I didnt do it nor as far as Iknow no one in my family did it either

But, I love Apolyton so what's say we quit eating re-fried -re-hased old Stew and agree wrong things happened and help generate a better atomosphere of Love and acceptance..



Please

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by LordShiva
I don't know much about US southern history, but I must disagree with that statement. Not to Godwin you all, but it's an appropriate comparison in this case: flying a Swastika is not the same as being German.

So u agree!! flying the rebel flag doesnt make them racists which was my point

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll


who said dat?

Who dat say dey gonna beat dem Saints?!? Who dat?!?

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll


see, I love people, never met a stranger..........

I am sorry folks got strung up,castrated,left for dead and treated unfairly.

I didnt do it nor as far as Iknow no one in my family did it either

But, I love Apolyton so what's say we quit eating re-fried -re-hased old Stew and agree wrong things happened and help generate a better atomosphere of Love and acceptance..



Please

what you mean then we all get along???

[Ben Kenobi]

Why can't we all just get along.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
So u agree!! flying the rebel flag doesnt make them racists which was my point

But that's not what I said. I agree that being white, or being Southern, or being anything doesn't necessarily make you racist. But doing something is different.

Now, I don't know enough about Southern US history or of the Confederacy, so until I know more, I won't say that flying a Confederate flag is racist. But wouldn't you agree that flying a Nazi flag is anti-semitic? And that it's not a satisfactory explanation to say that they just want to show pride for their country and the way it stood up for itself after the humiliating treaty of Versailles?

[Elok]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
So u agree!! flying the rebel flag doesnt make them racists which was my point

Sorry, but I think you read him wrong. He can correct me if not, but I think he meant that you cannot equate using the swastika (=symbol of evil) and merely being a member of the race that used it in the past (which is innocuous).

Actually, the swastika is an excellent example for this discussion, insofar as it has many inoffensive meanings. I remember reading that the swastika has been used by tons of different cultures since ancient times, as a symbol of various different concepts including fire and virility.

Despite this potential for innocuous use, we still tend to assume that anyone who uses a swastika has Nazi sympathies, and I think that assumption is more or less warranted. When a symbol has been used by a group of monsters and become infamous in the process, it doesn't make sense to use the symbol and then act shocked when others are revolted. Regardless of whatever alternative meanings it may or may not have had in the past, the flag is now best known for being wielded by guys in pointy white hats.

At the very least, Southerners wishing to show Southern pride could use a modified symbol to distance themselves from the "hateful racist" aspect. Or just put some sort of anti-slavery symbol next to it/under it. A broken chain, for example. Lynyrd Skynyrd used the Confederate flag, but they also decorated their shows with anti-segregation symbols such as a lit-up sign of a man karate-kicking a burning cross.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why can't we all just get along.

Couldnt have said it better myself

/me tries but often confounds and confuses even himself, but has folks to help keep my thoughts straight

[Ben Kenobi]

Despite this potential for innocuous use, we still tend to assume that anyone who uses a swastika has Nazi sympathies, and I think that assumption is more or less warranted

Why? The Nazis took a symbol and corrupted it just as the KKK might adopt the Confederate flag for their rallies.

Why should we fall into their trap of making the association between the confederate flag and slavery? That's really what the KKK wants us to think which is why they are adopting the flag.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by Elok


Sorry, but I think you read him wrong. He can correct me if not, but I think he meant that you cannot equate using the swastika (=symbol of evil) and merely being a member of the race that used it in the past (which is innocuous).

Actually, the swastika is an excellent example for this discussion, insofar as it has many inoffensive meanings. I remember reading that the swastika has been used by tons of different cultures since ancient times, as a symbol of various different concepts including fire and virility.

Despite this potential for innocuous use, we still tend to assume that anyone who uses a swastika has Nazi sympathies, and I think that assumption is more or less warranted. When a symbol has been used by a group of monsters and become infamous in the process, it doesn't make sense to use the symbol and then act shocked when others are revolted. Regardless of whatever alternative meanings it may or may not have had in the past, the flag is now best known for being wielded by guys in pointy white hats.

At the very least, Southerners wishing to show Southern pride could use a modified symbol to distance themselves from the "hateful racist" aspect. Or just put some sort of anti-slavery symbol next to it/under it. A broken chain, for example. Lynyrd Skynyrd used the Confederate flag, but they also decorated their shows with anti-segregation symbols such as a lit-up sign of a man karate-kicking a burning cross.

Thats not wht some folks are arguing!! they are arguing that flying a rebel flag denotes racism. why cant i say that white folks do the same? werent the white folks the ones for slavery and stuff? correct me if im wrong but i dont think i am..
just as u say not all germans wove the swastikas not all southerners wove the confederate flag in slavery and racism!!!

[Bosh]

just as u say not all germans wove the swastikas not all southerners wove the confederate flag in slavery and racism!!!

Not all germans have swastikas.
Not all southerns have confederate flags.
Germans who have swastikas are racists.
Southerns who have confederate flags are racists.

Nice parallel.

Take a look at this for example: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/texsec.htm

The whole point of the Confederacy was to defend slavery.

[SlowwHand]

That's not true.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
That's not true.

Apparently the Texans who drafted and signed the linked document would disagree with you, they seem to talk more about slavery more than every other grievance put together.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
It isn't that though. What McFun says is that 150 years after an event, all people that live in a state south of him is a bigot. Anything north or parallel, they're not.
Well **** that.

Thank god I have never made such generalizations of white Southerners.

But it's not my fault that your flawed logic equates the argument that the Confederate symbolizes white supremacy that I must also be arguing that all white Southerners today are white supremacists.

You made a lame attempt in distorting my argument, Slowwy. Racism was never exclusive to just the South; the North and West have their fair share of racism as well, historically, and in the present.

[SlowwHand]

Let me ask you a question.

I said 5% of the South owned slaves. I've shown this many times, in many threads McFun loves to start. It's never acknowledged. I took it from Northern sources, ignoring even looking at sources connected with the South.

From somewhere, either an uncited source or a figure that stuck in his head somehow, Doc Strangelove thinks it was 25%. I'm not going to track down the sites again, nor am I going to argue percentages, because the sawbone's figure will suffice.

25% of the South was aristocratic slave owners, ok?
So your contention is that 75% of the South went rushing to the battlefield to protect the rights of the aristocrats. Using Doc's figures, that's stupid.
If you happened to accept mine, it's insane.

Gramps Troll pretty much had the reason. "Because you're down here."

In 1861, Northern people, for the most part, were arrogant. Same as McFun is today.
They were so arrogant and dismissive of Southerners, civilians went on picnics with their children in attendance,to watch the first battle. They ended up fleeing back to Washington.
Northerners listened to nothing people from the South had to say, like McFun doesn't today.

I would cite another proof to it not being racial to the point McFun keeps pushing, again 150 years after the fact. He calls it the Civil War.
In the South, it's called the War Between The States.

From the South's point of view, the war was over the dismissive arrogance of the North, not over the 25%* who owned slaves.