MLB - 2006 Season! Continued!

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Arrian
By the way... here come the Twinkies! They were dead not long ago, and now they're only 2.5 games off the wild card lead. Wow. Joe Mauer for AL MVP?

-Arrian

1 game as of tonight

We'll win tomorrow

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Let's not get too carried away here. While Mr. Mauer hits for average, he doesn't hit for all that much power. I'd pick Thome or Dye over Mauer, or even Manny Ramirez. Yes, they all have OPS above Mauer (as does Wells, Ortiz, and Giambi, FWIW).

On the flip side, Imran, he's a catcher. Catchers who hit are rare. This is why Jorge Posada is almost criminally underappreciated by my fellow Yankees fans.

I'm well aware of the OPS leaderboard... it's the first place I went to when I was writing my prior post. But I dropped Hafner, Ortiz, Thome, Konerko, Manny... all because they either play no defense at all or they play defense at relatively unimportant positions.

Mauer's OPS: .982, 7th in the league.
Number 1 is Hafner, at 1.076 (!). That's a good sized difference, but Hafner's a DH and Mauer is, I repeat, a catcher.

Try this: pull up the OPS leaderboard, and then select only catchers. Have a gander.

The guy with the best case to beat Mauer is, IMO, Vernon Wells.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

I really don't care that he's a catcher. By that logic, Mike Piazza should have won a number of MVP awards (though, to be fair, he did get jobbed out of one in the late 90s). If we are talking about who is responsible for the success of your team, Mauer is probably #3 on the Twinkies behind two guys named Liriano and Santana. Someone like Thome is far more deserving, even though he is a DH, namely because of the more central role he's had in his team's success. And I think when the season is done, either Thome or Ramirez wins the award.

Hafner's team is non-contending so he's probably out of the conversation.

Interesting you bring up Posada... how many times as he been in the running for MVP? I count only 2003, where he finished 3rd, where he has been in the Top 10 in votes.

[Arrian]

BAH! Thome? He's been great for the White Sox, sure, and one of the very best hitters in the AL, but don't give me this crap about him being the reason they're winning. He's part of it, but so is Dye (HUGE year), Konerko, and a number of other guys. In fact, your logic should favor a guy who's carrying a team whose lineup is generally weak. Like, um, the Twins.

That being said, I don't like that logic. I think the MVP should be about value, both offensively and defensively. Included within that, for me, is the player's performance relative to others playing his position. As in, if the team didn't have this guy and had to plug in somebody else, how bad would that hurt?

As for the pitchers, yes those two have been phenomenal, but pitchers generally don't win MVPs for the basic reason that they do not play 9 innings every day. I think that's overblown, but I also think that a position player who's having the type of year Mauer's having at such a key position outweighs any pitching that isn't Pedro Martinez circa 1999 (and maybe even that). Incidently, who catches Liriano and Santana?

Posada has been a great hitter (for a catcher) for a long time. But several things have worked against him. One, his defensive reputation is poor. It's a little overblown, but he's not Pudge. Two, he's got zero speed (Mauer, otoh, has some). Three, he's never hit for high average and strikes out a fair amount, which I think hurts him with people who don't look at stuff like OPS. Four, he's a Yankee. I don't mean that there is anti-Yankee bias, I mean the Yankees are often loaded with superstars and people just tend to forget about Jorge.

And why do past MVP voting results matter in this discussion? I thought I made it clear that I'm not arguing for who I think will win, but rather who I think SHOULD win.

edit: And I think that, at this moment, the winner should be either Mauer or Wells. Neither, IMO, is a bad choice.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well take Thome out of the lineup and replace him with... well, an average hitter and I think you have a worse White Sox squad than you would a Twins squad without Mauer. The White Sox need to hit out of their skulls because the pitching, which was their bread and butter last year is faltering with a team ERA in the bottom half of the American League.

And while Thome does have a Dye and Konerko, you seem to be very quickly forgetting that Mauer has a Morneau and Cuddyer. If you hadn't noticed, Morneau has a higher OPS than Konerko. And while Dye is hitting extremely well also, they are playing for a team that can't rely on great pitching anymore.

Don't try to insinuate that Liriano and Santana are doing so well because Mauer is catching them either. Santana kind of has a Cy Youngs and Liriano was an uber-prospect.

If we are talking SHOULD win, I'd give it to Thome.

[Arrian]

Make that an average DH or 1B type for Thome, not an average hitter. As against an average C for Mauer... and the answer you get is different.

Truth be told, all the great hitters who are on contending teams have other good hitters around them - otherwise they wouldn't be contending teams, would they?

Fair enough on the issue of who is catching those pitchers - I for one never really bought into the idea that a catcher can coax noticeably better performance out of pitchers. At least not on anything like a consistent basis. So I retract that comment/question. I was half-joking anyway.

You think Thome should win. It wouldn't be a terrible choice, but I disagree. I think the defensive value of Vernon Wells or Joe Mauer makes up the gap in OPS. Which, at this moment looks like this: 1.037 for Thome, 1.009 for Wells and .982 for Mauer. Wells is a centerfielder, Mauer a catcher and Thome is a DH. Are you kidding me?

As for "where would so-and-so's team be without him" I think that the Twins would be toast w/o Mauer and the Jays would be toast without Wells... and the Chisox would have problems without Thome. So they're all important to their respective teams. That's a wash.

What Thome should win is comeback player of the year.

-Arrian

[Guynemer]

Twins sweep ChiSox.

Latest standings:

AL East
Boston 61-39 ---
New York 59-40 1.5
Toronto 56-44 5

AL Central
Detroit 68-33 ---
Minnesota 59-41 8.5
Chicago 59-41 8.5


Wild Card
New York 59-40 ---
Minnesota 59-41 0.5
Chicago 59-41 0.5
Toronto 56-44 3.5

[OzzyKP]

Detroit has an 8.5 lead in the division.

[snoopy369]

MVP candidates are never compared to their position, except for their fielding abilities.

[Arrian]

Again, I was arguing for the way I'd vote, not the way it's usually done. Everybody has a different definition of MVP.

To me, if there are a bunch of guys all hitting terrifically well but one of them plays a premier defensive position (Wells, Mauer), that pushes them over the top.

1B/DH types who can hit are rather more common than CFs or Cs who can hit.

In other news, Yankees win, Twins win, both Sox lose. Huzzah!

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

ESPN.com is reporting the Yanks have tentatively got Abreu and Lidle for the Yanks' #1 pick SS C.J. Henry, and RP Matt Smith, plus one other minor leaguer from an approved list.

The Yanks will pay the entire contracts for Lidle and Abreau (who is owed $15 mil next year).

[Ming]

And the RICH get Richer... While Abreau is a good player, he isn't worth the contract he has. Fortunately, that never seems to matter to the Yankees, especially when they are filling a need.

Gee... I wish the Cub's management cared as much for their team

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, its an extra, what, $7 mil in the luxery tax kitty?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, its an extra, what, $7 mil in the luxery tax kitty?

Like they really care... especially when a playoff spot is in risk. You have to love the attitude of George and the Yankees. If they see a shot, they take it... no matter what the cost. Sometimes, they make bad decisions, but you have to love that they do spend the money when they see a need.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, not really... because instead of the smart buy, they go after the biggest name possible.