To say nothing of his right hook.
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
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Nolan Ryan
5386 IP
5714 Ks
3923 BB
3.19 ERA
3.57 League ERA during his career
112 ERA + (he was, over the course of his career, 12% better at preventing runs than his peers)
Roger Clemens
4795.2 IP (still going)
4581 K
1540 BB
3.11 ERA
4.46 League ERA (through 2005)
143 ERA+ (through 2005)
His ERA, without adjusting for era, is better (3.11 to 3.19). When you add the league average ERA as context... this is not close.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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Originally posted by Arrian
This is why you and I can never had a reasonable baseball discussion.
Free agency is a fact of life. Paying inflated, overmarket prices for free agents is only a fact of life in the Bronx.
BTW - Snyder was released from KC. Seanez was a nominal free agent - SD had no interest in signing him. It's not like a bidding war. Wakefield's been around forever - he was in AAA in the Pirates organization in '94, released by them in '95 at the beginning of spring training, signed to a minor league contract and assigned to the PawSox for '95, but made the big club in spring training. He's not Sox drafted, but for all intents and purposes, he's a home-grown (albeit recycled) product.
Hansen, DelCarmen, Pap, Gabbard, Lester are all home-grown.When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Really. Explain what Toronto did with BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett this offseason then, Michael. Go ahead, tell me how they didn't "pay inflated, overmarket prices for free agents" or that they did but it's Steinbrenner's fault. Baltimore never did that either. Or any other team. Nope, it's only the Yankees that do it. MFY's, waaaaa!
...
Wakefield - ok, to me that's farm-raised.
Gabbard & Lester, right. There ya go. I knew I was missing some names. How I managed to forget Lester, given his recent issues (!) is beyond me.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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Nolan Ryan is, by far, the most overrated pitcher in the history of baseball. He does not make the Top 10 all time. He probably makes the Top 25, but barely (in fact, I believe in Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract, Ryan made #25 in the best pitchers of all time - oh, FYI, Walter Johnson was #1).
His WHIP and ERA+ are no where near to the best of the best (Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Grover Cleveland "Pete" Alexander, Three Finger Brown, Clemens, etc).“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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As for Koufax... he burned very bright, but only for a short period. His run from '62 to '66 was amazing, though only second (as far as great pitching runs go) to Pedro Martinez's jaw dropping 1997-2003.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Pedro's peak was so good I enjoyed his work even when it was against the Yankees. I'll always remember a game in '99 - 17 ks, 1H at the Stadium. He was toying with them.
If you're going for peak value only, I'd pick Pedro over pretty much anybody.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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Originally posted by Arrian
Really. Explain what Toronto did with BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett this offseason then, Michael. Go ahead, tell me how they didn't "pay inflated, overmarket prices for free agents" or that they did but it's Steinbrenner's fault. Baltimore never did that either. Or any other team. Nope, it's only the Yankees that do it. MFY's, waaaaa!
Uhhh, Burnett and Ryan's combined salaries this year aren't a third of what Moose makes. Farsnworthless is over 1 million more a year than Ryan's salary, and Villone and Burnett are about matched, as well. The MFY have $54 million in current year payroll (not counting Pavano, and not factoring in prorata luxury tax hit) for pitchers paid more than Ryan.
Care to try again? Although it is a tad ironic the even the failed example you cite comes from a team in the same division as the MFY.When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
As for Koufax... he burned very bright, but only for a short period. His run from '62 to '66 was amazing, though only second (as far as great pitching runs go) to Pedro Martinez's jaw dropping 1997-2003.When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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First of all, Moose's contract dates from 2001, and was one of the last ones before there was a major market correction (like Manny's, or Jeter's). Like many others, it's backloaded. Ryan & Burnett are in the first years of their deals.
Burnett's contract is 5 yrs, $55 million. So while he's making 2.2 mil this year, that is going to ramp up quickly and ultimately average 10.1 million per year.
Ryan has a 5 year, $47 million deal. So while he's making $4 million this year, it will ramp up and average $9.4 million per year.
Farnsworth is 3 years, $17 million, which averages to 5 2/3 million per year. Overpaid? Absolutely. But NOT paid more than BJ Ryan (that would really be insane).
I agree that the Pavano deal was insane, stupid, bad, and whatever else you want to pin on it. Mussina you have to look at in the context of the time/market, and then it's less insane than it looks now, in the last year of his backloaded deal. That being said, yes, he's overpaid. So are Ryan and Burnett, and those deals *did* set the market this year (in conjunction with the Mets deal for Wagner).
-Arrian
p.s. I think Pavano's was 4 yrs, 40 mil. 10 mil per, which is basically what Burnett and Ryan will average. Obviously it's a huge bust because he's a fragile little *****, but whatever.Last edited by Arrian; September 7, 2006, 16:25.grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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He'll matter, at least a little, if the Tigers can hang on and then do well in the playoffs.
But you're never going to stop Yankees and Red Sox fans from blathering incessantly about their teams. We're a little nutty like that.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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Originally posted by Arrian
First of all, Moose's contract dates from 2001, and was one of the last ones before there was a major market correction (like Manny's, or Jeter's). Like many others, it's backloaded. Ryan & Burnett are in the first years of their deals.
Burnett's contract is 5 yrs, $55 million. So while he's making 2.2 mil this year, that is going to ramp up quickly and ultimately average 10.1 million per year.
Ryan has a 5 year, $47 million deal. So while he's making $4 million this year, it will ramp up and average $9.4 million per year.
Farnsworth is 3 years, $17 million, which averages to 5 2/3 million per year. Overpaid? Absolutely. But NOT paid more than BJ Ryan (that would really be insane).
I agree that the Pavano deal was insane, stupid, bad, and whatever else you want to pin on it. Mussina you have to look at in the context of the time/market, and then it's less insane than it looks now, in the last year of his backloaded deal. That being said, yes, he's overpaid. So are Ryan and Burnett, and those deals *did* set the market this year (in conjunction with the Mets deal for Wagner).
-Arrian
p.s. I think Pavano's was 4 yrs, 40 mil. 10 mil per, which is basically what Burnett and Ryan will average. Obviously it's a huge bust because he's a fragile little *****, but whatever.
The Sox have been dealing with the consequences of the Manny contract's back end for the last three seasons, but at least Manny has delivered some semblence of value, and his sitting behind Papi in the order adds some huge net value to Papi's paltry 7 mil.When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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