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Originally posted by Berzerker
Granted this is a possibility, but one raised by people arguing to add to the list of "Whores". We could throw even the kitchen sink onto that list to support our own view. I'm not a Catholic (although baptised without my permission
) and I would agree alot of that stuff they have and do, including the idolatry, violates the teachings of Jesus, but thats true for so much of organised Christianity. The only real Christianity I see is in individuals and how they interact with others and they dont even have to call themselves Christians.
Using Paul's more covert condemnations of the Romans who were obviously deserving to condemn future Popes is too much of a stretch. But I'm considering the notion that it was the Catholic Church because of the analogy - the Whore of Babylon was a reference to the captivity in Babylon = the spiritual captivity of the Church that Rome spawned. I understand the Jews were actually treated well in Babylon because of some Jewish prophet's visions helping the King. This may have produced a schism within the Jewish comminity in Persia with many people assimilating into the culture while the Jewish fundies complaining about the loss of their cultural identity, even their Jewish spirituality. Short of extermination, assimilation was the greatest threat facing the Jews, so alot of their religion must be seen thru that prism. Alot of it was never meant for the human race.
Granted this is a possibility, but one raised by people arguing to add to the list of "Whores". We could throw even the kitchen sink onto that list to support our own view. I'm not a Catholic (although baptised without my permission
) and I would agree alot of that stuff they have and do, including the idolatry, violates the teachings of Jesus, but thats true for so much of organised Christianity. The only real Christianity I see is in individuals and how they interact with others and they dont even have to call themselves Christians. Using Paul's more covert condemnations of the Romans who were obviously deserving to condemn future Popes is too much of a stretch. But I'm considering the notion that it was the Catholic Church because of the analogy - the Whore of Babylon was a reference to the captivity in Babylon = the spiritual captivity of the Church that Rome spawned. I understand the Jews were actually treated well in Babylon because of some Jewish prophet's visions helping the King. This may have produced a schism within the Jewish comminity in Persia with many people assimilating into the culture while the Jewish fundies complaining about the loss of their cultural identity, even their Jewish spirituality. Short of extermination, assimilation was the greatest threat facing the Jews, so alot of their religion must be seen thru that prism. Alot of it was never meant for the human race.
In the book of Acts Paul stated unequivocally that the very men he had appointed to be the elders of the first Churches would go astray.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Acts 20)
Some of these men probably became the gnostics, another early heretical sect. Some of course, started slowly developing the teachings that produced what we know as Roman Catholicism. It started with simple things- like baptismal regeneration (saying that faith wasn't good enough, you now had to add rituals and baptism in order to be saved), or focusing on how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ instead of the point of the whole thing- which is to spiritually unite us with Our Lord. And so these things built up over time, and eventually people started to use images and forget about the clear prohibitions about idolatry, and trusting in people other than the Lord, and trying to contact the dead and engaging in things like "saint worship". By the time Constantine rolls around in 325AD, the Church has corrupted itself a good deal, and the corruption becomes institutionalized. Then, by 666AD, the papacy is now on top of the world, significantly having increased in power under Gregory the Great and Leo the Great and consolidating its power against the Eastern Orthodox Sees, which were always wary of an influential Rome.
And so the captivity was complete. The product? The dark ages, judgments from God including the Great plague and Muslim invasion, and massive ignorance until the advent of the Printing Press and the Protestant Reformation.
When the scripture uses the word "harlot", it inevitably refers to God's people having gone astray. Christ documents the going astray at the beginning of Revelation, where he starts to mention the corruptions entering the various churches during the time of the Apostle John while he is on Patmos. Then, toward the end of the book, Revelation describes the super ultra apostate Church. It commits fornication with the kings of the earth, it sits on a state, it has military power of its own. It claims to be the one true church, that it is not a widow. Yet, it is drunk with the blood of the saints who have resisted her, and who she has falsely called "heretics".
Here are some examples of the use of harlot in the Old Testament, which is obviously what the Apostle John is drawing from when he writes the Apocalypse- John was a Levite and an expert in the scripture.
The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. (Jeremiah 3)
Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. (Ezekiel 16)
Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth. (Hosiah 3)
Finally- I just want to make a point about one comment you made saying that Christians don't call themselves Christians. Well that can't be true really. Christ expects us to stand up for Him and proclaim Him before men. If we are ashamed to do so then He will not proclaim us before His Father. A Christian's life absolutely must be defined by faith. Just like we were discussing earlier with the rich young ruler who wouldn't give it all up to follow Jesus during his earthly ministry- just because you obey the ten commandments from your youth (like he did) doesn't make you a Christian. A Christian is someone who calls Jesus his Lord and believes himself to be a sinner, and needs forgiveness by the blood that Jesus spilled, and that God offers us forgiveness in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ Alone, who we proclaim as the salvation of all men.
A Christian is someone who first and foremost believes in Jesus, that Jesus died for His Sins, and rose again from the dead. Immediately following this, a Christian is someone who accept God at His Word, who doesn't go and invent his own teachings that he prefers, and who obeys that word in His life, obeying its moral principles- including the unpopular ones today such as the prohibitions against homosexuality and other sexual immorality. I agree with you that morality defines Christianity, but many pagans are "good" people in an every day sense. Christians take that a step further, they say that we are all sinners, even the best of us, and since God must judge every sin no matter how small, every man therefore to be forgiven must take refuge in the Lord Jesus Christ and the price He paid for our sins.
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