Alexander

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ray K
Simple questions...

Did Alexander primarily speak Greek, or Macedonian?

Did he propagate Greek culture throughout his empire, or Macedonian?

he propagated Greek culture, in particular Athenian culture. Which proves the Macedonians were not jus Greeks, they were Athenians

[lord of the mark]

whether the ancient Macedonians were Greeks or not depends on the time period. The Greek sources are pretty clear that in the period before, say, 500 BCE they were not Greeks. The Greeks established colonies among them, which they only did among barbarians. By the time of Alexander the royal family and the aristocracy were Hellenized, and some of the army may have been. But much of the army was not, and presumably most of the commoners were not. Over the next few hundred years the entire country was hellenized (as were Thracians, lycians, Lydians, etc, etc,)

SO - if the Greeks want to take credit for Alexander they are right. If the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia want to claim that there is was a Macedonian identity that isnt Greek, they are also correct. (though of course it wasnt slavic, but that doesnt seem to be the point)

at some point in the early middle ages the territory that is now the RoM AND the area that is now Northern Greece became primarily slavic. As did the rest of Greece as well. Greece was rehellenized, but the northern part remained primarily slavic. as did the area that became RoM and most of the Balkans.

In 1912 there was an exchange of populations, and most slavs left Northern Greece, just as many Greeks left certain other parts of the Balkans.

However a few slavs stayed behind, and the Greek state has not ackwowldeged their existence, and has commited some human rights infractions against them (though there are far more serious human rights infractions in todays world)

Ergo:
1. There is NO justification for anyone else to claim any of the territory of the Republic of Greece.
2. The Republic of Greece SHOULD reexamine its minorities policy
3. The Republic of Macedonia is entitled to use its constitutional name. The US should recognize it by its constutional name, and it should be clear to all that this implies to recognition of any territorial claim against Greece.

Case closed.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by laurentius
And in what position are you exactly to state something like this? I do give a s*it. I believe many others do as well.

Fair enough.

You know whats absurd? You posting in this thread. How would you or anyone else have any idea what Alexanxer the Great would do? I understand you were trying to appear cool and all but its just not working, we arent idiots.

I'm merely pointing out how strange it is for people of the present to 'lay claim' to Alexander. It's an anachronism. Alexander wouldn't recognize his own people now, whoever they are; making claims that you are his descendents - whether made by Macedonians or Greeks - is fairly odd.

I would also like to add that I have as much right as you do to post in this thread.

[laurentius]

LotM: I agree with points 1 and 2 but fail to see any justification for point 3. Why cant the Slavs use some Slavic name instead? Its like the Turks establishing the East Roman Empire again.

[Cyclotron]

They can, but they don't want to. And the name of a state is, inevitably, up to its inhabitants to decide.

[Cyclotron]

3. The Republic of Macedonia is entitled to use its constitutional name. The US should recognize it by its constutional name, and it should be clear to all that this implies to recognition of any territorial claim against Greece.

Additionally, LotM, I believe the US already does recognize the country as the "Republic of Macedonia," and is one of the few that does so.

But generally, well said.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Cyclotron


I'm merely pointing out how strange it is for people of the present to 'lay claim' to Alexander. It's an anachronism. Alexander wouldn't recognize his own people now, whoever they are; making claims that you are his descendents - whether made by Macedonians or Greeks - is fairly odd.

I would also like to add that I have as much right as you do to post in this thread.

Sure. Still if you'd have Greek friends too I'd reckon you'd be far more neutral on this.

Anyway I dont see Caucasian Americans claiming to the ingenious American legacy just because they barbeque

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
They can, but they don't want to. And the name of a state is, inevitably, up to its inhabitants to decide.

So why dont the Poles claim the Prussia and the Russians Köninsgberg. The Bulgars should claim to be the Tharacians and the Romanians Dacians while were at it. The point is that you cant just "steal" a historic name that doesnt really belong to you or with you have very little assosiation with. This is the same reason why I'm disgusted by the way the modern Turks claim to the history of the Jonian Greeks. Izmir and Efes..its Smyrna and Ephesos FFS!

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by laurentius
Sure. Still if you'd have Greek friends too I'd reckon you'd be far more neutral on this.

I'll admit that readily.

I only got into this thread to protest the use of the word "fyromian," but as far as the Alexander and ethnicity issue -

I think it's pretty obvious that Alexander has much more in common with the Greeks of today than the Macedonians. That's not hard to establish. I find the use of Alexander's legacy by either side for the purposes of nationalist posturing to be, at best, disigenuous.

The bottom line for me is that I don't think it matters anyway. Greeks - MarkG, for example - may indeed have a point when they decry the use of Alexander or other Greek cultural products and legacies by non-Greeks. What bothers me is the transformation of that resentment into what seems to be clear discrimination against Macedonians, many - probably most - of whom do not really care about Alexander's legacy. They want to be able to cross the border without being harassed by the border guards, and to actually be able to use their passports, which the Greeks don't recognize. They want to be called by the name they chose for themselves. If the Greeks have legitimate cultural claims, that's fine - they have a lot of culture to be proud of, and a right to protect it - but the impression I get is that this cultural battle has had very unfortunate results when it erupts into other areas of society. There is a lot of anger over something that seems to me largely irrelevant to today's world, and I sympathize with the people who are suffering for it.

Anyway I dont see Caucasian Americans claiming to the ingenious American legacy just because they barbeque

You must not know much about the Boy Scouts.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by laurentius
So why dont the Poles claim the Prussia and the Russians K�ninsgberg. The Bulgars should claim to be the Tharacians and the Romanians Dacians while were at it. The point is that you cant just "steal" a historic name that doesnt really belong to you or with you have very little assosiation with. This is the same reason why I'm disgusted by the way the modern Turks claim to the history of the Jonian Greeks. Izmir and Efes..its Smyrna and Ephesos FFS!

Many citizens of latin american countries are resentful that Americans call themselves "Americans." They believe they have the same right to that name as we do, also being from America. Nevertheless, they do not sue us over it, or take a grievance to the UN. They move on with their lives because in the end it's not very important.

And I might add that we have many states, cities, and towns named after native american locales and tribes that we have no connection with other than the fact that we now live here.

It seems enough to me that the Macedonians live in (at least part of) the geographic area we call "Macedonia." And I don't think it's as crass as you think - the Macedonians I spoke with considered that to be their identity, not some ploy to steal Greek history. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt on such matters.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cyclotron


Many citizens of latin american countries are resentful that Americans call themselves "Americans." .

Pretty ironic coming from folks who dont even speak Latin, let alone have ties to ancient Rome, doncha think?

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Pretty ironic coming from folks who dont even speak Latin, let alone have ties to ancient Rome, doncha think?

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Cyclotron


I'll admit that readily.

I only got into this thread to protest the use of the word "fyromian," but as far as the Alexander and ethnicity issue -

I think it's pretty obvious that Alexander has much more in common with the Greeks of today than the Macedonians. That's not hard to establish. I find the use of Alexander's legacy by either side for the purposes of nationalist posturing to be, at best, disigenuous.

The bottom line for me is that I don't think it matters anyway. Greeks - MarkG, for example - may indeed have a point when they decry the use of Alexander or other Greek cultural products and legacies by non-Greeks. What bothers me is the transformation of that resentment into what seems to be clear discrimination against Macedonians, many - probably most - of whom do not really care about Alexander's legacy. They want to be able to cross the border without being harassed by the border guards, and to actually be able to use their passports, which the Greeks don't recognize. They want to be called by the name they chose for themselves. If the Greeks have legitimate cultural claims, that's fine - they have a lot of culture to be proud of, and a right to protect it - but the impression I get is that this cultural battle has had very unfortunate results when it erupts into other areas of society. There is a lot of anger over something that seems to me largely irrelevant to today's world, and I sympathize with the people who are suffering for it.

Dont get me wrong here I dont like to see Macedonians being misrepresented or discriminated. Thats why I posted. the Greek Macedonian heritage is clearly being stolen here by the Slavic people residing in Northern Historic Macedonia. I do argee its in the end largely meaningless in todays intergrating world. And I hope that when The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia joins the EU the tensions between Greece and it will gradually wither away. All I'm saying is that it appears that the FYROMIANs are basing their newly fund identity on fairy tales and misinterpretations of history.

You must not know much about the Boy Scouts.

Well, I've been one but maybe I missed domething

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Cyclotron

Yep, its sad how they fail to recognise their Incan/Aztec/Guache/Indian roots

[laurentius]

nm