Alexander

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by laurentius
Well, I've been one but maybe I missed domething

In America? Then you must have heard of the Order of the Arrow...

OA - White guys claiming the native american legacy since 1915.

[Barnabas]

I dont understand this guy, does he thing that ancient macedonians before being hellenized were slavs?

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
I dont understand this guy, does he think that ancient macedonians before being hellenized were slavs?

[Barnabas]

yes, I know

me Noob

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Cyclotron


In America? Then you must have heard of the Order of the Arrow...

OA - White guys claiming the native american legacy since 1915.

Uh I guess that wasent part of our training here in Finland

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
yes, I know

me Noob

you noobio! Repent! Now!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by baronzilch
Not arguable at all, it is a collection of English dialects and not a seperate language. Americans speak English (officially).

Ever heard of sarcasm? Irony?

[Traianvs]

Re: Re: Alexander

Originally posted by Nickiow


How about because in an abstraction of history, the most well known Greek is Alexander, yes he was a Macedonian, but what he is know for is what he did as leader of the Greeks not what he did as leader of the Macedonians.

Macedonian history is not being stolen, Macedonians of that time wanted to be Greek, claimed to be greek and were acepted as athletes to participate in the Olympic games, a thing only open to Greeks, before macedonia became a mil rival to the rest, let alone become the top Greek state for a period of history.

Clepatra was half Macedonian, through Ptomolomy, is Egypts history being stolen or Macedonian?.

Ehm no he acted as the leader of the Macedonians that wished to be seen as Greeks. That he is being known as the leader of the Greeks is simply wrong, and if we don't say it's wrong, everyone will keep on thinking that he was the leader of the Greeks!

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Martinus
lol I love people like you

No, really.

Alexander was Macedonian. Cleopatra was Macedonian. Catherine was German. Victoria was German. Washington was British. Napoleon was Corsican.

Washington was born in America and not in England. His parents were born in England.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
They want to be able to cross the border without being harassed by the border guards, and to actually be able to use their passports, which the Greeks don't recognize.

i dont know what goes on in the borders (and it's Greece's right to recognize or not recognize another country and it's papers. hell, Turkey still refuses to recognize Cyprus, an EU member) but i know for example that many people from Skopje are coming to Thessaloniki for studies....

They want to be called by the name they chose for themselves.

today's citizens of fyrom did not choose the name themselves. this was a process started and politically motivated during the last century.

There is a lot of anger over something that seems to me largely irrelevant to today's world, and I sympathize with the people who are suffering for it.

their goverment should put a stop to territorial and cultural claims and focus on today. they do it in words (although it's been like 10 years since the time that a president of fyrom admitted that people of Skopje dont have anything to do with ancient macedonians) but it doesnt seem that they do anything to stop this nationalism

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by MarkG
i dont know what goes on in the borders (and it's Greece's right to recognize or not recognize another country and it's papers. hell, Turkey still refuses to recognize Cyprus, an EU member) but i know for example that many people from Skopje are coming to Thessaloniki for studies....

No argument here. I'm aware it's your right. I just don't think it's very nice.

today's citizens of fyrom did not choose the name themselves. this was a process started and politically motivated during the last century.

Bur regardless of how or when it was started, this is how they refer to themselves.

their goverment should put a stop to territorial and cultural claims and focus on today. they do it in words (although it's been like 10 years since the time that a president of fyrom admitted that people of Skopje dont have anything to do with ancient macedonians) but it doesnt seem that they do anything to stop this nationalism

Again, no argument here. Like I said, there is plenty of petty nationalism to go around on both sides.

However, I was under the impression that the territorial claims were withdrawn as part of their acceptance to the UN...

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by dino_2d


I think that you are contradictory to your self
The Greeks didnt count Macedonians as Greeks but Macedonians count them self as a Greeks.
his theory of yours does not hold water.

Ill re phrase to avoid any confusion as to my theory.

Macedonian names for the months calender were the same as other Greeks, when Macedonian envoys goto other Greek states they dont require translators, at any time at all in the ancient world.

Macedonian King Alexander (485-440bce) had competed in the Olympic games well before Philip came to create a unified Macedonia from the coast and the seperate highland regions that were allied to and subject to the Macedonian king through his conquests, political and military, Philip taking 7 wives, all for political union and advatage. This pologamy was one reason the southern Greeks called him a barbarian, as they did not consider pologamy as suitable.

That Alexander founded the royal line in the coast and plains of Macedonia, and he and his clan came north from Argos to become king, it was his right to compete in the Olympics because he was Greek, ie from Argos, rather than as a Macedonian Greek. An intresting difference between him and Philip later, Philip was not of that genitic line, and he argued that any and all Macedonians were able to compete because they were as Greek as any other. Appian (Thucydidedes does the same in his work) in the Anabis puts Alexander giving the differences between Macedonians pre and after Philip for instance,and the culture of Macedonia certainly was very different from the rest of the Greeks untill Archelos (413-399) created Pella and made it and other Macedonian citys as Greek as Athens, playrights/thinkers such as Euripides left their homes and moved to Macedonia to write and think, indeed the Olympic competition for dramas was held because of the Macedonian dominance of the field and introduced it at Delium as an Olympic festival, under Archelos guidance. Macedon ceased to be a far away cultural backwater, and thats when the mud slinger about them being not Greek comes to the fore, sure some of them were not, particulry the highland kings allied and subject to the Macedonian King who provided the backbone of the army, the infantry, as opposed to the cav element from the lowlands. Philip fused the diverse geography and cultural features of his realm into a single unity, it was a melting pot of actual Greeks and barbarians, which was what the other Greeks objected to more than anything else. This fusion gave Phillip the manpower to match almost any Greek combination and defeat them, other Greeks would have had to enfranchise their large slave/alien populations to match this manpower, and they would not do that.

Phillip therfore wanted to compete in the Olympics on the grounds that he as a Macedonian was as good a greek as any other, southern Greeks objected and had the mil means to deny him as Macedonia was not yet in a posistion to force them to act against their wishes, Philip won by argument, not the implied use of force, that he as a Macedonian and any future Macedonian could compete at Olympus.

So my theory runs thus, the Olympic were open to only Greeks for competition, before Greeks were defeated in war and could not refuse Romans and others from competing. At the Time of Philip they were able to deny anyone they wished to do so from competing. Ergo Philip competing at the games means that the then Greeks who objected on the grounds Macedonians were not Greeks were unable to convince enough Greeks to deny Macedonians from competition, earlier in Archeleos time the Macedonions had sponsered the drama competion to be included in the Olympic festival as a competition and it stayed in from then on, only Greeks can sponser events in the Olympics.

Now you say this theory is wrong, for that to be correct one or more of the facts must be incorect.

Which one/s do you find to be errors in fact leading my conclusion to be in error.

Hammond History of Greece to 333 BCE. p534.
"At the end of the Bronze Age a residue of greek tribes stayed behind in southern Macedonia. Perhaps in the 7thCent one of these Macedones occupied Agea and expanded into the coastal plain of lower Macedonia which become the kingdom of Macedon, and their descendents were the descendents of the classical period. They worship the same Gods, Zues/hercules in particular as other Greeks.Other Greek tribes intermigled in Upper Macedonian, particulry Ilyrians, Paeonian and Thracians, Thracians having their own orgiastic religion.In the 5th Cent the Macedon Royal line, Argeadea, was recognised as Greek by the prsidents of the Olympic games, although their alleged deviation from Argos may have had no more a verbal basis than an echo,the Kings themselves believed themselves descended from Hercules. the Royal line in Upper Macedonia, Lycanus, claimed descent from Bachiadae who had fled from Corinth in 657."

By the 4th cent Macedonia was more akin to Epirus than the southern Greeks, but consider themselves Greeks, before that time only the Royal lines and some of the coastal/lowland region considerd themselves Greek and the rest of the pop[ulation did not, and other Greeks did not consider them Greeks either, Herodetus tells us this in his acount. Philip changed all that, they were Greek, maybe not in the mold of Thebes/Argos/Athens etc, but Macedonia had been a pawn in their games and now the wheel was turning and thats when the issue of your not a real Greek comes into play.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by dino_2d


Come on man this is not geting you anywhere even in my todays language there are a lot words that are same in the greek language.
And this they were not helene but just alittle dont you thing is a bit strange for official Greek theory.

Earliest written records for Macedon show the Macedon calender was the same as southern Greeks, same name for days and months. Its a dialect to be sure that was different from other Greeks but not a different langaugue, but i think wqe agree on this neh?.

[Nickiow]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alexander

Originally posted by MarkG
obviously other racers didnt want an unknown competitor that could take their victory

Well yes, the mud slinging of history is no different than of today....if a state such as macedon is solving a lot of the political social problems your state is unable to, the easy answer is to throw insults.

Originally posted by MarkG

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_Greco-Roman.html

that's a huge list, could you provide a more exact link?

Well this point is something i *know*, that earlier Macedons competed and did so because they came from Greek stock and everyone acepted that, rather than as Macedonians as Greek stock, and that Philip changed that posistion with argument. Now exactly which book its from in a primary text i dont recall, i do know Appian Anabbis recounts the drama competition enacted at the Olympics by macedonia sponsership, and iirc its one of Demosthones diatribes that has the acount of the arguments Philip presnted for his case that Macedons were as greek as any other.

Sorry i cant be of more help, but if i get flash of memmory recall ill let you know the exact passage and arguments.

Edit http://www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmo...enthistory.asp heres the primary source for Macedonian women competing, FAQ at the Tuft link near the bottom.

[Nickiow]

Re: Re: Re: Alexander

Originally posted by Traianvs


Ehm no he acted as the leader of the Macedonians that wished to be seen as Greeks. That he is being known as the leader of the Greeks is simply wrong, and if we don't say it's wrong, everyone will keep on thinking that he was the leader of the Greeks!

Except of course that Alexander went and took down Persia as head of the Greek alliance, just as his father had preapared to do as also the head of the Greek alliance.

Thats not wrong, simply historical fact that the Greeks were united under Philip and then his son alexander in formal religous and lawful coalition to wage war against the Persians, in the name of all Greeks.

So not wrong at all, unless your re writting history to suit your argumenet?, in which case ther4est of worlds history books are of no use.