Hu a big disappointment

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Frankychan

You gotta be kidding me. Military spending doesn't equate to size. Do you know that their military and their government have a really awkward communications problem? If I spend 100 million dollars on a spy satellite versus 100 million for tanks and guns, doesn't that make a difference?

Your example doesn't seem to clarify your point. Sure, military spending doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could all be used to build a Maginot type line, or be squandered, stolen, whatever. But in the case of the Japanese we know that haven't completely wasted their money. They've got sh!tloads of F-15s, enough to defeat the Chinese Airforce a hundred times over. They have significant anti-submarine warfare assets and the biggest and best navy in East Asia. They are only vulnerable to China's nuclear threat, and they currently are under the U.S. nuclear umbrella. If they happen to fall out with the U.S. they could build a sizable nuclear force within a year. In the case of Japan 100 million dollars for a spy satellite is a much better investment than tanks and guns btw.

Originally posted by Frankychan
Lesse...Hmmm, Okinawa? The American military basically does whatever it wants (hyperbole) without much reprisals. There have been at LEAST 2 incidents where American military personnel have been accused of raping underage girls there and there have been no reprisals. The American convoy that crashed into an Okinawan crowd? "Sorry, it won't happen again". There have been so many damn protests to kick the American military out of there...but the Japanese government is so complacent its just crazy.

I think your post would make more sense if you substituted the word "repercussions" for the word reprisals. Look them up and see if you agree. And there have been repercussions both legal and political for those rapes.

I lived on Okinawa for 6 years btw during the Vietnam War and visited there in October. My brother in law works for the U.S. military there. I spent a week traveling around the island (it's about 350 square miles, a tiny fraction of the area of Japan, and most of it isn't controlled by the U.S. military) with my dad's best friend who is Okinawan. So I do know a thing or two about Okinawa, and my information is pretty current as well as historical.

Most of the people are either in favor of keeping the U.S. troops there or are neutral on the question, despite the obvious visible protests by the others whenever a nasty incident occurs. This might have something to do with the fact that the Ryukyus get tons of aid from the Japanese government in return for puting up with the bases. The Japanese government considers it a small price to pay in return for being under the U.S. nuclear umbrella, and considering that that means that we'll go toe to toe with China, N.Korea or Russian in any nuclear conflagration they get into with Japan I can't help but agree.

The U.S. and Japan are both democracies which have been (mostly) run by rational educated leaders for the last almost 60 years, all of whom have found this relationship to be well worthwhile. What was an occupation in 1945 has grown into a longstanding mostly comfortable relationship between equals based on similar regional and global goals and mutual respect. Your implication that Japan is somehow like a Warsaw Pact member is an insult to both Japan and the U.S., and is simply, thouroughly wrong.

Oh, and I think the convoy incident happened in Korea if we are referring to the same incident, I don't recall one on Okinawa.

Originally posted by Frankychan

Second point. Ok ok. We agree that just saying "China is Evil" is wrong. But "evil" is relative. I could point out the wrongs of American society (yes, I AM thankful I am an American) but do these statements and observations make them fact?

Sure. And Eva Braun thought that Hitler was wonderful, so he must have been wonderful right? I mean, she knew him better than anyone else so her opinion is not only as good as anyone else's, it stands to reason that it is superior in quality to the many millions of people who feel differently about Hitler but did not know him personally or witness his alleged deeds. Unless of course we admit that evil is really what people say is evil rather than some absolute concept the meaning of which is only known to some god somewhere who may or may not reveal his knowledge to a select few. Defining evil in this manner, I think more people would agree with me. The Chinese government is evil to the extent that few governments of such a sophisticated people are evil. I mean even Afghanistan is governed on a more moral basis than China.

There are always going to be differences of opinion, some of which will be based on a lack of information or distorted information (often on both sides), and others based on honest differences in perspective. You think police states are cool and want to work in the prison system. I'm a libertarian. So right off the bat one would expect a difference in opinion about many things even though much of our information is going to have come from the same sources.

You may still be right even if you are outnumbered, but it would behoove you to take an honest look at the information you have (and most Chinese will never have access to) before you get too emotionally involved with a system that systematically tries to keep its population ignorant and rightfully afraid of it.

[Dinner]

Franky,

1) Taiwan hasn't been under control of China for but 35 of the last 400 years. In the last century it has controlled Taiwan for 4 years and for the last 60 years Taiwan has been 100% self governing without any foreign Imperial power. Eventually China will have to accept the reality that Taiwan is independent especially if that is how the Taiwanese people democratically decide that is what they want.

2) China has not figured out how to out compete America. The US could easily destroy Chinese export lead economic expansion but returning to its previous isolationist policies, however, it is hoping that by encouraging the capitalist growth of China that the business class will eventually agitate for democratic reforms. This is what happened in South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, and Thailand. It is what would have happened in South Vietnam had not murderous Communist aggressors destroyed that state. And with luck that is what will eventually happen in China.

3) The PRC's action continues to be pseudo fascist at best and down right fascist at worst. The on going racist campaign against Japan is proof enough of this. That the PRC continues to ally with North Korea (one of the world's most repressive and murderous regimes), ethnically cleans Tibetans and replace them with Han, occupy 1/4 of Kashmere, and continually threaten its neighbors and/or attempt to expand its territorial claims also does not help China's case.

4) I don't see why Taiwan is politically crazy nor do I see why the Taiwanese people should not be able to democratically decide there own future.

5) This whole talk of "Asian Democracy" as Mathir put it and as several Chinese leaders have called it is bunk. The Chinese are people like everyone else and they can easily understand and follow the inherent fairness of the democratic system of government. Taiwanese, Koreans, Japanese, Thai, and Indians are all Asians who have adapted well to democracy. I refuse to believe that Chinese are inferior and that they cannot become a democratic nation and instead they have a brutally repressive one party state which is attempting to prevent the people's wishes from becoming reality.

[DanS]

I would have to see pretty good proof that Falun Gong are terrorists. We've never had any such problems with them, despite all sorts of opportunities.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Boshko, do you REALLY think UR has any proof for his statements?

FG is a cult. Cults are bad things, m'kay.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


FG is a cult. Cults are bad things, m'kay.

Yes, but sane countries don't throw people in jail for being part of a crazy cult. Freedom of religion and whatnot, ya know?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boshko


Yes, but sane countries don't throw people in jail for being part of a crazy cult. Freedom of religion and whatnot, ya know?

In the U.S., we burn them to death in their compounds.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Frankychan


China should develop it's own style of democracy independent of Western influence.

If democracy should come to China, it should be from it's own dealings without outside influence.

Sadly, there's little in China anymore that doesn't come from outside influence. Not that most Chinese will agree with that. One of the teachers at my school found an interesting way to rile his students up by asking them about Western influences in China. It's seems that the students are taught that communism is solely Chinese. So he points out that Marx is from the West. Let's just say his class wasn't too happy about hearing that.

Frankly, I'm beginning to feel that China can't develop it's own style anymore. It's become too dependent on foreign countries for ideas. The biggest problem is an education system that strips away any imagination and independent thought. In fact, I'm trying to help my students with this by doing a short series of classses on imagination. This week we're watching "Finding Neverland" in hopes that it may inspire them.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I stopped reading there. It's like saying Aum Shinri Kyo is a popular spiritual movement.

So how many nerve gas attacks have been launched by Falun Gong?

[mindseye]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

In the U.S., we burn them to death in their compounds.

Wake me up when they start burning Scientologists.

[Last Conformist]

This stopped being about Hu, well, about middle of the first page?

Alot of impressively stupid stuff has been said in this thread - I think the prize has to split between Hitler as a capitalist stooge and that Taiwan belongs to the PRC because the people chose communism two generations ago.

[mindseye]

Hu has been a disappointment (especially in media-related matters) to those hoping for blazing reform, but as has been pointed out, he's not a complete write-off. His attention to those left behind by development is refreshing after Jiang Zemin's near exclusive focus on the urban elite. The article also failed to mention some of his other better achievements, such as working to get China's AIDS act together.

But at the end of the day, Hu is just one guy in Beijing. And in China local politics are often what matters much more.

I think the quoted article, like a good deal of what you read in the western press about China, is superficially true but overly simplistic and lacking the context to make sense of what it really means on the streets and in the fields of China.

For example, you may read about a particular book being "banned", but you may have no way of knowing that in fact millions of copies are being sold at regular book stores all over the country. That is China, and you should bear that in mind whenever you read quotes from speeches (lots of boilerplate and window-dressing) or accounts of anything that sound particularly draconian (the truth is often fuzzier).

While the "crack-downs" and "campaigns" you read about are taking place, in many ways China's society is liberalizing and becoming increasingly information-savvy. A notable editor is canned at one paper, while at the same time other newspapers are printing stories and criticisms never allowed before. Protests are breaking out in parts of the country, while at the same time many in big cities are enjoying lifestyles absolutely unimagineable even a generation ago.

[Az]

burning scientologists, btw.

[mindseye]

I forgot to note that when you read quotes from the speeches of Chinese leaders, you should know that the speaker may have had nothing at all to do with the writing of the speech. This is common in China, even at Hu's level.

In other words, just because Hu said something in a speech somwhere doesn't mean it's on his agenda or that he even cares much about it.

A lot of speechifying is just kabuki and satisfying special interests, here like everywhere else.

[Az]

but nothing at all? don't they have some sort of personal speechwriters, that sort of point out their agenda?

[Dracon II]

In fact, I'm trying to help my students with this by doing a short series of classses on imagination

You'd better watch it... you'll be off to the ministry of love in no time. I've heard that Room 101 is good for the imagination