Hu a big disappointment

[DanS]

That's OK. I figured you didn't have anything new to offer anyway.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I stopped reading there. It's like saying Aum Shinri Kyo is a popular spiritual movement.

But if people really knew the truth, they would know that the actual government of Taiwan was founded by a fascist leader. Kai-shek? Yah, he was more of a fascist than Mao. Read up on him, then you might not be so harsh on mainland China.

My chinese friend says all china wants is all it's lost lands from colonialism and the forced negotiations. They're pretty much isolationist. I agree.

Sorry gang, but Taiwan belongs to mainland China.

[Ben Kenobi]

Fascism requires an outraged middle classes, a capitalist class in political control but in economic trouble, and a combative working class. None of these elements exist in China.

Uh, didn't they say that about China and communism?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Facism is a one party state where private ownership is encouraged but where everything is designed to promote and support the needs of the state. That's different from regulat capitalism or the statism of communism.

No, facsism is something very specific and different than any other nasty political dicatorship. Fascism begins as a movement of the enraged middle classes and declassé workers, like students, the unemployed, former soldiers, etc., people who are angry with how things are going in society.

At the same time, there needs to be a powerful workers movement. It needs to be powerful enough to make demands on the capitalist class and get them, but not conscious enough to move forward to revolution. Fascism has been described as the worker's punishment for failing to make the revolution.

Because of the power of the workers, a crisis of falling profits is created in capitalism. The capitalists have no way to deal with this crisis but to represses the wroerks, but the state is paralyzed and unable to take up the task. The capitalists find their means in the hands of the fascsists.

Fascism always starts out as a way of beating the workers down, of putting them back in their place, busting their unions, smashing their organizations, killing their leaders. The capitalists turn the state over to the fascists in order to crush the lower classes, to regain control of the economy.

Far from regulating everything in sight, the economy becomes even more anarchic, with greater power for the capitalists. The state doesn't tell the capitalists what to do, the capitalists tell the state what to do. And the state jumps to it. Hitler was not the master of Germany. He was the lapdog of Krupps and I.G. Farben, and G.E. When they said jump, Hitler said, how many people do you need to jump and how high? The state begins giving fat contracts to the major corporations. In the case of the Nazis, they even provided them with slave laborers and then went on a spree of conquest to provide them with new markets.

Few people understand the power that capitalist had in Nazi Germany. Schindler, a factory owner and minor member of the Nazi party, was able to storm into Auschwitz and demand the release of his workers. He was ordering around SS comanders. And they did what he said.

When the United States went to war with Germany, U.S. companies in Germany were not nationalized. They weren't seized. They had Germany managers replace the American ones, who had to leave, and the profits from the operation of the company were put in an escrow account that the companies were able to collect after the war. GM and Ford made a profit off their German companies which were manufacturing weapons to fight the U.S. The U.S. even had to pay damages to GM for damaging the factory by aerial bombing.

None of this is the case in China. The China government has no respect for private property. The capitalists have nothing close to poltical power. If the CCP decides to shut them down, they are **** out of luck. They have no poltical power in China.

Furthermore, the capitalists are booming. They are making profits hand over fist. There is no crisis of profit. There is no workers movement getting in their way. The workers of China are repressed and compliant, and have alway been. They don't need to be smashed.

The problem is you are confusing the form for the essence. Just cuz Rupaul looks like a woman and acts like a woman doesn't mean he is a woman. Just because the Chinese dictatorship is nasty, ferocious, nationalistic, and promoting capitalism doesn't mean it's anything close to Italian or German fascism. Putin's Russia is much closer to fascism that the CCP.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Uh, didn't they say that about China and communism?

China was never a communist society. It was a society in transition for capitalism to socialism, just like the USSR. Having a Communist Party in charge of your country doesn't make you communist, any more than the United States suddenly becomes a demcoracy when lead by the Democrats and a republic when lead by the Republicans.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hitler was not the master of Germany. He was the lapdog of Krupps and I.G. Farben, and G.E. When they said jump, Hitler said, how many people do you need to jump and how high? The state begins giving fat contracts to the major corporations. In the case of the Nazis, they even provided them with slave laborers and then went on a spree of conquest to provide them with new markets.

You keep parroting this line (probably to make capitalists look bad), but it just isn't true. The Nazi party had great control over the economy. Nazi party members were given promotions in the companies and were the ones that got the contracts. The Nazis told the weapons manufacturers what to make and when. The reason Schindler was able to get Jews out of Auschwitz was because there was a war and he was making munitions for that war. Of course the SS were going to let some Jews go to the Nazi party member to make shells for the front lines. Duh! That isn't the capitalists controling the Nazis, that's the Nazis bending the rules for more munitions. Schindler, just barely, on a few occasions avoided getting sent to Auschwitz himself. He was twice arrested for conspiracy, but avoided jail... mostly like by bribes, which was the other way he got away with stuff. Schindler passed out a TON of bribes to government officials. If Schindler hadn't paid off officials, he would have been investigated and jailed. Hardly the Nazi party bending to the will of the capitalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

In an economic sense, Nazism and Fascism are related. Nazism shares many economic features with Fascism, featuring complete government control of finance and investment (allocation of credit), industry, and agriculture. Yet in both of these systems, corporate power and market based systems for providing price information still existed.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


China was never a communist society. It was a society in transition for capitalism to socialism, just like the USSR. Having a Communist Party in charge of your country doesn't make you communist, any more than the United States suddenly becomes a demcoracy when lead by the Democrats and a republic when lead by the Republicans.

Comrade Chairman speaks the truth. What a lot of us don't realize is that there is a difference between socialism and fascism. Just cause the Nazi's were "National Socialists", the majority of us think that socialism is fascism...which isn't the truth.

[chequita guevara]

Corruption was part of the system. Nazis gave the capitalist the state's cofferes. The capitalists gave the Nazis fake jobs with big contracts.

The reason I keep repeating that line is because it's true. Fascism is a servant, not a master.

[Ben Kenobi]

China was never a communist society. It was a society in transition for capitalism to socialism, just like the USSR. Having a Communist Party in charge of your country doesn't make you communist, any more than the United States suddenly becomes a demcoracy when lead by the Democrats and a republic when lead by the Republicans.

Actually, is it possible to have a true communist state? I would think that once you reach true communism, you no longer have a state.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I stopped reading there. It's like saying Aum Shinri Kyo is a popular spiritual movement.

You're so full of BS its ridiculous. Since when has the Falung Gong done anything worse than your standard BS phoney faith healings, which is the sort of thing that all religions do.

Che is also really confusing me, especially in his delusions that China is in any way communist. The comparison to the NEP is just surreal, you're getting capitalists joining the CCP by the truckload.

And and don't see why China is any less capable of having a democracy than SKorea, Japan and Taiwan. Those three's democracies certainly aren't pretty but they're sure as hell a lot better than China's current fascist government.

Hmmm and I wonder what's being taught in those Communist Theory classes that the article talked about. What the hell are they teaching? That the best Communist governments don't do anything even vaguely Communist

[Shi Huangdi]

There is no reason why Western democracy couldn't work in China, several other Asian countries are Western style democracies.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The reason I keep repeating that line is because it's true. Fascism is a servant, not a master.

No, the reason you keep repeating that line is because your bias wants you to believe that the capitalists were the worse of the two. Its utter nonsense, but you've conned yourself into believing it.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


They're not fascist nor are they in danger of becoming fascist. Fascism requires an outraged middle classes, a capitalist class in political control but in economic trouble, and a combative working class. None of these elements exist in China.

Would you count Franco's government as fascist?

[Joseph]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It's a bureaucratic proletarian dictatorship on top of a peasant-capitalist economy. It's Stalinism. It's not new, it's old. The new aspect is that they've opened CP membership to capitalists, which may become a problem for them in the future.

You might remember I said in another thread that this guy was going to be a real big problem down the road.
To bad for the people.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Actually, is it possible to have a true communist state? I would think that once you reach true communism, you no longer have a state.

That's the theory. There won't be a need for a state, so it should cease to exist. That doesn't mean their won't be a government.

I think the material requirements to achieve communism are in our grasp. We have much of the technology. What we need is more abundent energy.