Hu a big disappointment

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Frankychan
But if people really knew the truth, they would know that the actual government of Taiwan was founded by a fascist leader. Kai-shek? Yah, he was more of a fascist than Mao. Read up on him, then you might not be so harsh on mainland China.

Chiang was a dictator but not a Facist.

My chinese friend says all china wants is all it's lost lands from colonialism and the forced negotiations. They're pretty much isolationist. I agree.

And all Hitler wanted to do was regain Germany's rightful territory and right the wrongs of the first world war. Most of the "rightful Chinese territory" hasn't been held by China for Centuries or even thousands of years. This is like the UK demanding half of France or Italy claiming parts of the ancient Roman Empire and it is not islolationist; it is aggressive expansionism.

Sorry gang, but Taiwan belongs to mainland China.

I think most people realize that is debatable. China has controlled Taiwan for something like 35 years in the last 400 so there isn't a very solid case. In any event if a democratic people want to decide their own future then they should be free to do so.

[Dracon II]

Sorry commie apologist, but mainland China belongs to Taiwan

Frankly I can't see how Taiwan's claim to the mainland is any more legitimate than vice versa.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by St Leo

The students in the Tianamen Square sung the Internationale and dreamt of democracy. And then they were mowed down by the tanks of the upper class.

Hierarchy is the perpetual problem.

Weren't the vast majority of the protestors in Tianamen square young members of the upper class themselves? IIRC they were largely drawn from the elite universities in Peking. It was not a workers movement. A pretty delusional comment to rebut a charge of delusion with.

[Bosh]

I called you bollocks and pointed out the striking similarities between Falung Gong and Aum Shinri Kyo. Anything else?

Except for the whole releasing of Sarin Gas on a crowded subway thing. You know, the entire reason that anybody has actually heard of the Aum Shinri Kyo. I asked for you proof of "terrorist" acts on the part of the Falung Gong and you provided none.

Oh, is that why?

Yup.

If the PRC accepts any DPRK "refugees" they will swarm across the border.

Just round them up and send 'em to South Korea. That's what Vietnam did with hundreds of NKoreans who were able to a sneak across China. Worked fine for them. This would make MUCH MUCH more sense than having thousands of deserate impoverished refugees sneaking around China dodging the police.

That won't be a problem, except the PRC has 800 million peasants, most of them poor.

Why would they want to stay in China They only go there because the Northern border of NKorea is MUCH MUCH easier to get across than the DMZ.

These "refugees" aren't seeking political asylum, they just want a better life.

And for this crime they should be sent back to NKorea where horrible things will undoubtedly happen to them for daring to defect when SKorea would be happy to take them. That's sick.

The problem is there is a huge mass of poor peasants all wanting a better life.

Which has what to do with NKorean refugees?

[Bosh]

Chiang was a dictator but not a Facist.

Yup, his government was much too incompetant to being truely totalitarian.

Weren't the vast majority of the protestors in Tianamen square young members of the upper class themselves?

Yup, pretty standard protestor demographics for the large part. It was when the general population started to show signs of supporting the students that the government started getting really afraid.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Dracon II

Sorry commie apologist, but mainland China belongs to Taiwan

Frankly I can't see how Taiwan's claim to the mainland is any more legitimate than vice versa.

Then you understand my post completely.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Frankychan

Ok, while I'll admit that the Falun Gong isn't in comparison to the Aum Shin cult. I don't really know what's up with the FG. Aum was preaching happiness and all that good stuff, so I don't know if the Gong are doing similar stuff.

Honestly, I don't believe China can have the same idea of democracy as China. Come on, S. Korea is so heavily influenced by America it's ridiculous. China is waaaaaay more independent than Korea was/is. Look at it's history. Korea had it's own monarchy, but paid tribute to China just cause it acknowledged that China influenced them.

The Korean War? American intervention. S. Korea STILL is a pseudo-American military base. Just like Japan. I want Japan to become independent of America just cause if something does happen, at least we (America) don't necessarily have to get involved. I hope Japan re-arms itself for defensive purposes.

But going back to the original subject. Look, China and it's history is older than America and Europe. Sorry gang, that's the truth. Therefore, I think we should at least try to understand them before we make prejudgments. And don't get me wrong, I'm loyal to America....but to just say 'China is Evil' is stupid.

Dude, do some reading. Japan doesn't need to "rearm itself for defensive purposes", it's been #2 or #3 in military spending for many years now. Neither Japan or South Korea is a psuedo-American military base. Have you noted anything that's happened in the last several years in Korea?

As for China's history being older than European history, I'm not so sure. It's hard to say exactly because it depends on what one considers history, and for that matter what one considers Europe or China. Comparing the Xia dynasty to the Minoan civilization for instance, they are roughly contemporaries. Of course both Chinese history and European history are younger than the histories of both Egypt and Mesopotamia. What this has to do with the debate at hand I don't know. But I agree that simply saying that China is evil is counterproductive. Making the same statement about their government seems to be merely a statement of fact.

[Frankychan]

Huh...where to begin...

Boshko-at least we can agree on something. Fascism in Asia would most likely look like WW2 Asia. As for your points:

As for Kai-shek, of course you didn't mention anything about him. I was using him as a reference for those who were trying to tie fascism with modern China. I won't doubt that Taiwan has made remarkable progress, but if you look at things in a historical sense, Taiwan belongs to China. It would be like one of the US states breaking off of the rest and becoming it's own nation (it's been done ala Civil War) and we've fought to gain back what was lost. I'm not saying that all the motives were the same, but in a way, they share the same reason.

The Confeds broke from the US, and the Union said that THAT wasn't happening. Same thing is going on with the Chinese situation. A part of the whole is missing, and China wants what it lost. (Drake see's where I'm coming from). Its the same thing, a part is broken off from the whole..and now the whole wants the part back.

Comrade Az:

Ok, I believe my first statement DOES INDEED have relevance toward the discussion about why China is doing what it's doing now. China is seeing how America is doing, economical policies, and is figuring out how to beat the competition.

Your second point, I used those examples to bring to light why mainland China might be thinking about with it's policies toward Taiwan. I'm not a Chinese National so I don't know about the personal freedoms, but from what I see and have encountered, Taiwan does afford it's citizens a little more luxuries than mainland China. However, to just say that "all Chinese citizens are oppressed and must be liberated" is unfounded stereotyping. I've met a SMACKLOAD of mainland chinese that can move around as they please. Are they oppressed? To me? Hell no they aren't...they might just have to go through a little more bureacracy than normal.

And the difference between Finland and Russia vs. Taiwan and China are how those countries were founded.

My third point which was rebutted...what done is done may not always stand true. Hong Kong? Turned over from British rule to Chinese rule. But I'm not saying that Taiwan turning over to Chinese rule would be the same...all I'm saying is that HK is an exception to the rule.

Oerdin:

Dude, what was that word they used? Lebenstraum? or something? True, Germany wanted all it's lost lands, but it (and he) wanted to expand further and further. Gaining lost lands was just the first step. Just look at Hitlers actions...ok, he got all his lost lands, but then he started expanding like mad.

While I don't doubt that a democratic people should decide their own fate, Taiwan's foundation is a different matter altogether. It's so political is crazy.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Sikander


Dude, do some reading. Japan doesn't need to "rearm itself for defensive purposes", it's been #2 or #3 in military spending for many years now. Neither Japan or South Korea is a psuedo-American military base. Have you noted anything that's happened in the last several years in Korea?

As for China's history being older than European history, I'm not so sure. It's hard to say exactly because it depends on what one considers history, and for that matter what one considers Europe or China. Comparing the Xia dynasty to the Minoan civilization for instance, they are roughly contemporaries. Of course both Chinese history and European history are younger than the histories of both Egypt and Mesopotamia. What this has to do with the debate at hand I don't know. But I agree that simply saying that China is evil is counterproductive. Making the same statement about their government seems to be merely a statement of fact.

You gotta be kidding me. Military spending doesn't equate to size. Do you know that their military and their government have a really awkward communications problem? If I spend 100 million dollars on a spy satellite versus 100 million for tanks and guns, doesn't that make a difference?

Lesse...Hmmm, Okinawa? The American military basically does whatever it wants (hyperbole) without much reprisals. There have been at LEAST 2 incidents where American military personnel have been accused of raping underage girls there and there have been no reprisals. The American convoy that crashed into an Okinawan crowd? "Sorry, it won't happen again". There have been so many damn protests to kick the American military out of there...but the Japanese government is so complacent its just crazy.

Second point. Ok ok. We agree that just saying "China is Evil" is wrong. But "evil" is relative. I could point out the wrongs of American society (yes, I AM thankful I am an American) but do these statements and observations make them fact?

[Az]

Ok, I believe my first statement DOES INDEED have relevance toward the discussion about why China is doing what it's doing now. China is seeing how America is doing, economical policies, and is figuring out how to beat the competition.

Yeah, but what's the point in that? "beating the competition" has little to do with the ethical value of the state and/or society. Sure, china may produce more, as a result, but also, as a result, people are paid crap wages, when they could be paid more. It maximises profit for the owner, not wages paid in the country ( I am talking about sustainable wages, that could still be very competitive ). And since all of this is flavoured with a false nationalist pride argument, it's nothing more, and hardly better than anything the most cynical capitalist enviroment has ever produced. It's perhaps one of the best examples of it's kind, really.

Your second point, I used those examples to bring to light why mainland China might be thinking about with it's policies toward Taiwan. I'm not a Chinese National so I don't know about the personal freedoms, but from what I see and have encountered, Taiwan does afford it's citizens a little more luxuries than mainland China. However, to just say that "all Chinese citizens are oppressed and must be liberated" is unfounded stereotyping. I've met a SMACKLOAD of mainland chinese that can move around as they please. Are they oppressed? To me? Hell no they aren't...they might just have to go through a little more bureacracy than normal.

I am not talking just personal freedom to move around. I am talking about personal freedom to express one's ideas as well. It's not only about form, but a lot about essense. You can have, for example, free elections, but they aren't really free unless the field of play for opinion is equal. Sure, it may not be the case in Taiwan, or anywhere, at all, but it's all relative: China's still much more problematic.

And the difference between Finland and Russia vs. Taiwan and China are how those countries were founded.

Who cares? it was 60/90 years ago! Most of these people are dead!

My third point which was rebutted...what done is done may not always stand true. Hong Kong? Turned over from British rule to Chinese rule. But I'm not saying that Taiwan turning over to Chinese rule would be the same...all I'm saying is that HK is an exception to the rule.

Precisely. An exception to the rule - and hell, even HK is facing some problems.

[Bosh]

Its the same thing, a part is broken off from the whole..and now the whole wants the part back.

Well actually the big piece is the bit that broke off if you want to get technichal about it. But why does all of this matter? Do you think that Russia has the same claim to, say, the Ukraine that China does to Taiwan. If not, why not? The Ukraine was Russian for far longer than Taiwan was Chinese.

And the way you're reifing things is strange. A nation can't "want" anything. Its a chunk of land.

And the difference between Finland and Russia vs. Taiwan and China are how those countries were founded.

Not much of a difference. They both broke off during a civil war.

While I don't doubt that a democratic people should decide their own fate, Taiwan's foundation is a different matter altogether.

Why?

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Az

Ok, I believe my first statement DOES INDEED have relevance toward the discussion about why China is doing what it's doing now. China is seeing how America is doing, economical policies, and is figuring out how to beat the competition.

Yeah, but what's the point in that? "beating the competition" has little to do with the ethical value of the state and/or society. Sure, china may produce more, as a result, but also, as a result, people are paid crap wages, when they could be paid more. It maximises profit for the owner, not wages paid in the country ( I am talking about sustainable wages, that could still be very competitive ). And since all of this is flavoured with a false nationalist pride argument, it's nothing more, and hardly better than anything the most cynical capitalist enviroment has ever produced. It's perhaps one of the best examples of it's kind, really.

Your second point, I used those examples to bring to light why mainland China might be thinking about with it's policies toward Taiwan. I'm not a Chinese National so I don't know about the personal freedoms, but from what I see and have encountered, Taiwan does afford it's citizens a little more luxuries than mainland China. However, to just say that "all Chinese citizens are oppressed and must be liberated" is unfounded stereotyping. I've met a SMACKLOAD of mainland chinese that can move around as they please. Are they oppressed? To me? Hell no they aren't...they might just have to go through a little more bureacracy than normal.

I am not talking just personal freedom to move around. I am talking about personal freedom to express one's ideas as well. It's not only about form, but a lot about essense. You can have, for example, free elections, but they aren't really free unless the field of play for opinion is equal. Sure, it may not be the case in Taiwan, or anywhere, at all, but it's all relative: China's still much more problematic.

And the difference between Finland and Russia vs. Taiwan and China are how those countries were founded.

Who cares? it was 60/90 years ago! Most of these people are dead!

My third point which was rebutted...what done is done may not always stand true. Hong Kong? Turned over from British rule to Chinese rule. But I'm not saying that Taiwan turning over to Chinese rule would be the same...all I'm saying is that HK is an exception to the rule.

Precisely. An exception to the rule - and hell, even HK is facing some problems.

Ok:

First of all, it seems like we're talking about two different aspects. You seem to be talking about the economics while I'm talking about the (possible) social motivations behind their actions. Of course I don't agree with the exploitation of their workers. My main point behind my arguments and my devils advocating is just that we have to try and understand China's motives.

Second point. Ok, conceded.

Third, that's just like saying history is dead. Learning about the history of ANY nation helps in determining why a nation is the way it is NOW. The previous generation passes down it's values and mores to the next generation whether we like it or not.

Fourth. Dunno what to say, actually.

[Az]

First of all, it seems like we're talking about two different aspects. You seem to be talking about the economics while I'm talking about the (possible) social motivations behind their actions. Of course I don't agree with the exploitation of their workers. My main point behind my arguments and my devils advocating is just that we have to try and understand China's motives.

For me, I see it quite clearly. An unaccountable elite of bureaucrats co-opts/uses an extremely harsh strata of capitalists to create more wealth for China, and then to use to their own benefits/goals. Had they wanted to industrialize the country for their own benefits, they'd pay higher wages. Instead, they are concentrating the wealth created in the hands of the government and corprorations. They are using humans purely as capital, and while it may be the most efficient, productive, etc. thing to do ( after all, luxuries used by people are nothing more that waste if productivity isn't increased by their creation, and are counter-productive if the productivity decreases. ), this is not a reason to use their cash to aquire luxuries to themselves, which are far more wasteful in term of happiness creation, and this is not a reason to build up a military arsenal.

The PRC is making the face of being the harsh parent who wants their sons and daughters to grow up strong, independent and succesful, but is really manipulating their offspring to work in the field for him. To "build character", of course.

To continue the metaphore, the kid needs to be sent much more to school, and do less work in the shoe factory, even though they're still young, tender, and relatively undeveloped.

Third, that's just like saying history is dead. Learning about the history of ANY nation helps in determining why a nation is the way it is NOW. The previous generation passes down it's values and mores to the next generation whether we like it or not.

Sometimes it passes, sometimes the next generation is transformed by events out of the reach of the former generation. I know this very well, myself, from own country. History is not dead. But the only reason it's important is a learning tool of examples of past moves and mistakes, and to understand the reasons why things are they way they are now. Not claims of ownership, not past revenges. It's like some people here saying that: a) we have claim to this land because we lived here 2k years ago - zilch. We have a claim to this land because we build the ****er up from scratch. b) the germans of today should somehow feel bad for the holocaust - again: they weren't even on the drawing board. Same thing goes to people who think that the palestinians should return to this country - moralistic idiocy that tries to right wrongs, and creates mountains of pain in the process.

[aneeshm]

I hope Hu turns more and more hardline communist as time goes . Let the reforms that were achieved go waste . Let him cause the Chinese economy to stagnate/slow down/implode . The way will be easier for India . China has acted like a **** towards India for too long now . Let communism get what communism deserves .

[Az]

aneeshm Who cares about other people, right?