Hu a big disappointment

[OzzyKP]

Hu?

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Ted Striker like 8 days ago...
Hu???

[trevie jake]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Franky,

1) Taiwan hasn't been under control of China for but 35 of the last 400 years. In the last century it has controlled Taiwan for 4 years and for the last 60 years Taiwan has been 100% self governing without any foreign Imperial power.

Okay, before this gets out of hand and becomes a "fact":

From 1661 to 1683 Taiwan was ruled by Koxinga (and descendants), a Chinese Ming-loyalist seeking to use Taiwan as a base to regain the Mainland from Manchu invaders. (Notice any parallels...?) The Manchus invaded, and Taiwan was then ruled by the Manchu Empire for over two centuries, from 1683 to 1895, when it was ceded to Japan. After 50 years of Japanese rule, it became a part of the Republic of China in 1945. And until democratization, the Republic of China was effectively a regime run by Mainlanders.

So no, it's not "35 out of 400 years".

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Az

First of all, it seems like we're talking about two different aspects. You seem to be talking about the economics while I'm talking about the (possible) social motivations behind their actions. Of course I don't agree with the exploitation of their workers. My main point behind my arguments and my devils advocating is just that we have to try and understand China's motives.

For me, I see it quite clearly. An unaccountable elite of bureaucrats co-opts/uses an extremely harsh strata of capitalists to create more wealth for China, and then to use to their own benefits/goals. Had they wanted to industrialize the country for their own benefits, they'd pay higher wages. Instead, they are concentrating the wealth created in the hands of the government and corprorations. They are using humans purely as capital, and while it may be the most efficient, productive, etc. thing to do ( after all, luxuries used by people are nothing more that waste if productivity isn't increased by their creation, and are counter-productive if the productivity decreases. ), this is not a reason to use their cash to aquire luxuries to themselves, which are far more wasteful in term of happiness creation, and this is not a reason to build up a military arsenal.

The PRC is making the face of being the harsh parent who wants their sons and daughters to grow up strong, independent and succesful, but is really manipulating their offspring to work in the field for him. To "build character", of course.

To continue the metaphore, the kid needs to be sent much more to school, and do less work in the shoe factory, even though they're still young, tender, and relatively undeveloped.

Third, that's just like saying history is dead. Learning about the history of ANY nation helps in determining why a nation is the way it is NOW. The previous generation passes down it's values and mores to the next generation whether we like it or not.

Sometimes it passes, sometimes the next generation is transformed by events out of the reach of the former generation. I know this very well, myself, from own country. History is not dead. But the only reason it's important is a learning tool of examples of past moves and mistakes, and to understand the reasons why things are they way they are now. Not claims of ownership, not past revenges. It's like some people here saying that: a) we have claim to this land because we lived here 2k years ago - zilch. We have a claim to this land because we build the ****er up from scratch. b) the germans of today should somehow feel bad for the holocaust - again: they weren't even on the drawing board. Same thing goes to people who think that the palestinians should return to this country - moralistic idiocy that tries to right wrongs, and creates mountains of pain in the process.

Comrade Az:

Dammit, once I read your comment, I forgot what my point was about. While I totally agree that the "elitists" should never gain their wealth from the toil and hardship of others, I won't agree in the fact that China's social motivations for re-absorbing Taiwan's soceity based on their "breakaway status" is NOT legitimate.

I don't like the fact that the Chinese people are being shepherded for the petty gains of the elitist few.

Second issue: Ok, of course we all know the famous quote "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". Neither do I feel that understanding the past should warrant a -FREE PASS- for revenge. But at the same time, neither should we ignore the history of a nations foundations while we try and figure out why a nation presently is acting in such a way. I'd say one of the biggest preditctors of a nations behavior is its past history AS WELL AS ITS CURRENT NEEDS.

For China's sake, sure they're probably one of the oldest nations still in existence today, but if we just take their past 100 years of history...I'll bet we will gain a better insight on their current actions than someone who has just studied their present-day thinking.

History not only teaches what mistakes to not repeat, but also of current behavior passed down culturally IMHO.

[Az]

History not only teaches what mistakes to not repeat, but also of current behavior passed down culturally IMHO.

passed down, or was a critical influence in a complete change. Sure, the past is a critical in forming of the future, but it doesn't do so by making the future repeat the past. Thus, the past may also cause a complete change in the future - It's not linear.

In any case, all of this hase little to nothing to do with the legitimacy of what the PRC does to it's own people, neither to it's stance on Taiwan.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

psssh, I can't be asked to read through 5 pages of stuff to make a bad joke.

[Bosh]

Waits for UR to provide any proof for his claims that the Falung Gong has engaged in terrorist activities.

*taps foot*

*whistles*

[Sprayber]

The problem with the Chinese government (and those that try to explain thier behavior away) is that old griviences are used as excuses to grab everything and anything that they can. Franky wants the west to look over the Chinese because that is just the way they are and they can't help it. Taiwan should be given to China because way back when it was Chinese territory or it's goverment and infrastructure is somehow Chinese (hey but at least Hawaii will never be independent either) Problem with Franky's ideas is that a few million Taiwanese feel differently about it, but hey they aren't anywhere near as important as what those on the mainland are they? As long as the CCP officials in the capital feel good about themselves who cares what the people in Taiwan think. And we all know that the average Chinese peasant will be much better off with the people of Taiwan suffering the same fate as they. I think you have been playing too much SMAC Franky. Not everyone feels the need to answer to the call of the Chairman. I always liked playing the Spartans but damned if I would ever want to live in that enviroment.

And the only apology the Chinese people could really use at this point is one from it's own government. Too bad the CCP isn't as interested in those issues as they are dragging the Japanese out.

[DanS]

Give 'em hell, Dixie!

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by DanS
Give 'em hell, Dixie!

It's just that they try to dress it up in a cute dress and pretty pink bow to make it all ok. Make it look good. Something they can try to defend. But I say leave it as it is. an attempt at power grabbing and be honest about it. It's about the Chinese goverment wanting to take all that they can and at the same time turn the people attention to other places. Don't dress it up in cultural attitudes and history lessons because it sounds good. It's how the game has been played for centuries. One that China has been both winner and loser at.


China taking over Taiwan would be a giant step back for everyone in the world except maybe the CCP. But **** everyone else right Franky? As long as the CCP feels good about itself.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Bosh
Waits for UR to provide any proof for his claims that the Falung Gong has engaged in terrorist activities.

*taps foot*

*whistles*

Hey! He's trying to save face. We should be apologizing to him for making him lose it.

[Ned]

Is Hu a Commie or a Fascist?

[Ted Striker]

Hey Ned what do you think of Kelly Hu? Would it hit it with her or Britney?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Az
aneeshm Who cares about other people, right?

Slight correction there . Who cares about other people who have traditionally been hostile to you and already stabbed you in the back once , right ?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Hey Ned what do you think of Kelly Hu? Would it hit it with her or Britney?

I'm not Ned (thank God!), but I approve of Kelly Hu.