Hu a big disappointment

[Dracon II]

Hu's not going to dismantle the reforms... the best he can do is try to ameliorate the massive inequalities that have crept into the system. But if he gambles with China's prosperity... he's toast.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Che, I though sure you would have an opinion on president Hu. He, after all, is a leader in the largest nominally communist country that ever existed.

Now, Ned, you know we Trotskyists don't get along with the established Communist parties.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by aneeshm
I hope Hu turns more and more hardline communist as time goes . Let the reforms that were achieved go waste . Let him cause the Chinese economy to stagnate/slow down/implode . The way will be easier for India . China has acted like a **** towards India for too long now . Let communism get what communism deserves .

This is really weird. I attended the Indian Embassy School in Beijing when I was a wee little nipper, and also had many Indian/Pakistani friends throughout my time in the UK. Not once did I hear any animosity towards China.

It wasn't until much later that I was even aware of some Sino-Indian famous rivalry. And it wasn't until MUCH later that I went online and saw it in action, at places like Urbandictionary and now, Apolyton.

Far out.

[chequita guevara]

Well Ali, aneeshm's a prat.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
The funny thing about this thread is that my ex-housemate was also named Hu - we called him Hu Man Bing (true story).

And to be disappointed in HMB, you'd have to entertain expectations of... well, anything. So he never did prove disappointing, really!

My residency in China was almost entirely under Deng and Jiang, so I don't pretend to any authority about Hu. But I don't think it's really fair to call the man a "big disappointment". He's consolidated the grip of the ruling party, overseen continued breakneck growth, shaken his saber at the Japanese and Taiwanese, and extended the cordial olive branch of peaceful hegemony to India, Pakistan, Russia, and various other neighbors. I'd say that counts as status quo.

Now, if Hu had orchestrated a disastrous economic reversal, coupled with a secession of the component ethnic minorities in the northwest and Tibet, while standing helpless as foreign powers shelled and seized key port cities, disassembling the nation's production centers one by bloody one as their armies marched through the burning embers of the nation's capital singing "This is not a full-blown rape / Lo - it is merely an incident!" - THEN I might feel compelled to give gentle voice to feelings of disappointment.

Same goes if they lose to the Germans again in the World Cup like they did in 2002.

I think a lot of people had fairly high expectations for him to be more progressive and move closer toward democracy. Hence their disappointment. You seem to have very low expectations of him.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Sprayber
The problem with the Chinese government (and those that try to explain thier behavior away) is that old griviences are used as excuses to grab everything and anything that they can. Franky wants the west to look over the Chinese because that is just the way they are and they can't help it. Taiwan should be given to China because way back when it was Chinese territory or it's goverment and infrastructure is somehow Chinese (hey but at least Hawaii will never be independent either) Problem with Franky's ideas is that a few million Taiwanese feel differently about it, but hey they aren't anywhere near as important as what those on the mainland are they? As long as the CCP officials in the capital feel good about themselves who cares what the people in Taiwan think. And we all know that the average Chinese peasant will be much better off with the people of Taiwan suffering the same fate as they. I think you have been playing too much SMAC Franky. Not everyone feels the need to answer to the call of the Chairman. I always liked playing the Spartans but damned if I would ever want to live in that enviroment.

And the only apology the Chinese people could really use at this point is one from it's own government. Too bad the CCP isn't as interested in those issues as they are dragging the Japanese out.

Ok ok, so my thoughts parallel SMAC somewhat. But taking in the BIG picture, if I lived in his utopia, I know I'd probably regret it. However, my main problem is that lots of people here in America are all like "OMG!!!11!! China is Evil cause they are Communist! They want Taiwan, Destroy them!!!"

I'm tired of hearing that. I want to show people the other side of the argument (personal feelings aside). If people just take the time to try and understand the other side of the argument objectively and without personal bias, I believe there would be a GREATER global understanding of things. Unfortunately though, many people aren't willing to take the time and see things differently.

Of course, my personal feelings might not want to be what most of the people here agree with, I at least can understand the opposing point of view. Taiwan has a great government, its people enjoy a little more social freedoms. Of course I love that, who wouldn't?

But again I'll bring up history's sake and say that Taiwan IS a part of China. China has over the last couple of decades, reclaimed all it's lost lands centuries ago, and I believe that China see's itself as incomplete until it gains ALL it's lost lands.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by aneeshm


Slight correction there . Who cares about other people who have traditionally been hostile to you and already stabbed you in the back once , right ?

This might be going off on a tangent here...but aneeshm, can you tell me what's been going on between India and Pakistan in the past couple of months? Last I read, there was exchanges of gunfire across the Indian/Pakistani border as well as mortar shelling.

Kinda concerned about that. Especially the Kashmir region...

[Bosh]

the other side of the argument objectively and without personal bias, I believe there would be a GREATER global understanding of things

Right, and objectively the Chinese government is evil because of the revolting way that it treats NKorean refugees.

But again I'll bring up history's sake and say that Taiwan IS a part of China. China has over the last couple of decades, reclaimed all it's lost lands centuries ago, and I believe that China see's itself as incomplete until it gains ALL it's lost lands.

Why should I care? How does the acquisition of artibrary chunks of land make life better for anyone?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Frankychan

But again I'll bring up history's sake and say that Taiwan IS a part of China. China has over the last couple of decades, reclaimed all it's lost lands centuries ago, and I believe that China see's itself as incomplete until it gains ALL it's lost lands.

When I suggested the current Chinese regime had virtually all the hallmarks of Nazi Germany, Imran was quick to (mistakenly) point out that the ChiComs had no territorial ambitions and had not invaded anybody.

But obviously they have. Tibet, Turkestan and Vietnam.

And they still have further ambitions. In addition to Taiwan, they may want to restore

Vietnam?

Korea?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Frankychan


Ok ok, so my thoughts parallel SMAC somewhat. But taking in the BIG picture, if I lived in his utopia, I know I'd probably regret it. However, my main problem is that lots of people here in America are all like "OMG!!!11!! China is Evil cause they are Communist! They want Taiwan, Destroy them!!!"

I don't care what they call themselves Franky. The Chinese goverment is **** because of what it does to it's people. You can talk all you want about what you think others think but it doesn't make it so.

I'm tired of hearing that. I want to show people the other side of the argument (personal feelings aside). If people just take the time to try and understand the other side of the argument objectively and without personal bias, I believe there would be a GREATER global understanding of things. Unfortunately though, many people aren't willing to take the time and see things differently.

Again my personal feelings have nothing to do with what I think of the CCP but I suspect those who side with China against the US have a lot of personal reasons for doing so. It was you who kept talking about developing without American influience as if Japan and S Korea were American colonies. We face stiff competition from both countries which is good but I don't see how you get that their situation is somehow worse than China's unless of course its your bias coming out.

Of course, my personal feelings might not want to be what most of the people here agree with, I at least can understand the opposing point of view. Taiwan has a great government, its people enjoy a little more social freedoms. Of course I love that, who wouldn't?

Apparently you don't think its so great cause your so eager for China to take it all over. If Taiwan has a great goverment and they enjoy more social freedoms, then why in the hell would they want to take a step back and what is more interesting why would YOU want them to just to satisfy the dreams of beaucrats in the CCP? Can you tell me that Franky? Is it so important to make them feel better about themselves at the expense of the Taiwanese?

But again I'll bring up history's sake and say that Taiwan IS a part of China. China has over the last couple of decades, reclaimed all it's lost lands centuries ago, and I believe that China see's itself as incomplete until it gains ALL it's lost lands.

So the Ukraine goes back to Russia, Greece goes back to the Ottomons, Germany gets all its terrorties back. Lithauana gets restored to its former glory, the Scandanvian countries get all scrambled up again? Can you start to see why your little arguement starts to get ****ed up? And what exactly is China's complete self? Where do you Franky the wise draw China's borders? More importantly where does the CCP think China's borders should be.

One thing I'd like to know, are the Chinese so damn depressed about their stature in the world that only through expansion can they be appeased. I thought only the Russians had low national self esteem issues. Are the Chinese depressed to? Should we restore Rome why we are in the business of easing National Pride issues?

[Ned]

Why is it OK for a commie country to acquire "lost territories" by invasion, but not OK for any other country to do so?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Ned
Why is it OK for a commie country to acquire "lost territories" by invasion, but not OK for any other country to do so?

Apparently China has bad self esteem issues

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sprayber


Apparently China has bad self esteem issues

No doubt.

So did Hitler, but Britain and France declared war. (But not on Stalin who did the same thing as Hitler, and worse.)

So did Saddam, and Britain, France and the US declared war on him when he invaded and took Kuwait.

When Britain, France and Israel took the Sinai and Suez, we told them to bug out. They did.

When the commies tried to take SV, only the US, but not the Brits and France (for obvious reasons) tried to stop them. But Johnson adopted a no win strategy.

When the commies tried to take S. Korea, the UN adopted an no victory strategy, and would have done nothing at all had the USSR not skip the Security Council meeting due to stupidity.

No one did anything about Stalin before WWII, or after.

No one did anything about Red China aggressions.

No one but the US (and perhaps the Japanese) tells the Chinese to cool it over Taiwan. However, we did nothing about Turkestan and Tibet.

The double-standard is quite apparent. Communist countries get a pass, while Western countries (including former colonies like Iraq) are held to a much higher standard. If they invade anybody, they are villified to no end.

But the commies seem to have a god-given right to invade as they please without complaint by the New York Times, the London Times and other liberal media outlets.

[Tingkai]

[Agathon]

Why is it OK for a commie country to acquire "lost territories" by invasion, but not OK for any other country to do so?

Because we have reason and civilization on our side as opposed to Fundamentalism and McDonalds.