Hu a big disappointment

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Winston
Most importantly, switching labels around once the dirty laundry starts showing enables the majority of leftists to distance themselves from each and every communist regime in history - and yet still keep the dream alive.

The students in the Tianamen Square sung the Internationale and dreamt of democracy. And then they were mowed down by the tanks of the upper class.

Hierarchy is the perpetual problem.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ned
The harder he pushes, the sooner the collapse of the CCP.

From your computer to God's ear!

[Imran Siddiqui]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

There were several strains of tradition influencing Mussolini. Sergio Panunzio, a major theoretician of fascism in the 1920s, had a syndicalist background, but his influence waned as the movement shed its old left wing elements. The fascist concept of corporatism and particularly its theories of class collaboration and economic and social relations are very similar to the model laid out by Pope Leo XIII's 1892 encyclical Rerum Novarum. This encyclical addressed politics as it had been transformed by the Industrial Revolution, and other changes in society that had occurred during the nineteenth century. The document criticized capitalism, complaining of the exploitation of the masses in industry. However, it also sharply criticized the socialist concept of class struggle, and the proposed socialist solution to exploitation (the elimination, or at least the limitation, of private property). Rerum Novarum called for strong governments to undertake a mission to protect their people from exploitation, while continuing to uphold private property and reject socialism. It also asked Catholics to apply principles of social justice in their own lives.

While failing to outline a coherent program, fascism evolved into a new political and economic system that combined corporatism, totalitarianism, nationalism, and anti-Communism in a state designed to bind all classes together under a capitalist system. This was a new capitalist system, however, one in which the state seized control of the organization of vital industries. Under the banners of nationalism and state power, Fascism seemed to synthesize the glorious Roman past with a futuristic utopia.

Trade unions and employers' associations were reorganized by 1934 into 22 fascist corporations combining workers and employers by economic sector, whose representatives in 1938 replaced the parliament as the "Chamber of Corporations". Power continued to be vested in the Fascist Grand Council, the ruling body of the movement.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Boshko


You're so full of BS its ridiculous. Since when has the Falung Gong done anything worse than your standard BS phoney faith healings, which is the sort of thing that all religions do.

Che is also really confusing me, especially in his delusions that China is in any way communist. The comparison to the NEP is just surreal, you're getting capitalists joining the CCP by the truckload.

And and don't see why China is any less capable of having a democracy than SKorea, Japan and Taiwan. Those three's democracies certainly aren't pretty but they're sure as hell a lot better than China's current fascist government.

Hmmm and I wonder what's being taught in those Communist Theory classes that the article talked about. What the hell are they teaching? That the best Communist governments don't do anything even vaguely Communist

Ok, while I'll admit that the Falun Gong isn't in comparison to the Aum Shin cult. I don't really know what's up with the FG. Aum was preaching happiness and all that good stuff, so I don't know if the Gong are doing similar stuff.

Honestly, I don't believe China can have the same idea of democracy as China. Come on, S. Korea is so heavily influenced by America it's ridiculous. China is waaaaaay more independent than Korea was/is. Look at it's history. Korea had it's own monarchy, but paid tribute to China just cause it acknowledged that China influenced them.

The Korean War? American intervention. S. Korea STILL is a pseudo-American military base. Just like Japan. I want Japan to become independent of America just cause if something does happen, at least we (America) don't necessarily have to get involved. I hope Japan re-arms itself for defensive purposes.

But going back to the original subject. Look, China and it's history is older than America and Europe. Sorry gang, that's the truth. Therefore, I think we should at least try to understand them before we make prejudgments. And don't get me wrong, I'm loyal to America....but to just say 'China is Evil' is stupid.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boshko
Would you count Franco's government as fascist?

Not for the entire period of its existence. It ceased to be fascist in the early-mid 50s. After that it was just your ordinary military dictatorship.

Imran, I don't need to demonize capitalists. Certain capitalists certainly lend themselves to demonization, but that's just emotions getting the better of me. My theories on fascism are largely based on the writing of an anarchist, so I can't even be accused of simply following party line (and the SPs line is so muddy, I wouldn't do it anyway).

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
There is no reason why Western democracy couldn't work in China, several other Asian countries are Western style democracies.

China should develop it's own style of democracy independent of Western influence.

If democracy should come to China, it should be from it's own dealings without outside influence.

[Bosh]

It ceased to be fascist in the early-mid 50s.

How was it fascist prior to that period?
And I still don't see what you're getting at with your NEP comparison, the CCP is never going to turn against capitalism, its making far too much money from it.

Aum was preaching happiness and all that good stuff, so I don't know if the Gong are doing similar stuff.

Yes, they were preaching happiness How dare they

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Frankychan


China should develop it's own style of democracy independent of Western influence.

If democracy should come to China, it should be from it's own dealings without outside influence.

Why would that matter? As long as they get a good government what difference does it make how that government comes into being.

If Taiwan could ditch its dictatorship and become democratic, there's no reason why China can't.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boshko
Che is also really confusing me, especially in his delusions that China is in any way communist. The comparison to the NEP is just surreal, you're getting capitalists joining the CCP by the truckload.

Remember, in China, a million people is a very small number. The vast majority of the CCP are still bureuacrats and believers. I'm not saying China is communist, but it's not capitalist either. It's still a transitional society, and the capitalist class doesn't make the rules . . . yet.

Comparing what is going in China today to the NEP propsoed by Lenin is not surreal. China needed to build its economy which was stagnant, and allowed the capitalists to enrich themselves. It is still too early to decide whether this is a permanent feature of China's economy or just a trend. The majroty of the workforce is still in the state sector.

[Bosh]

The vast majority of the CCP are still bureuacrats and believers.

Believers in what? Besides their own power and Chinese nationalism its hard to think of anything that the bureaucracy would have to seriously believe in.

It is still too early to decide whether this is a permanent feature of China's economy or just a trend.

Come on, how can you believe this? China is as capitalist as, say, Europe.

[Imran Siddiqui]

My theories on fascism are largely based on the writing of an anarchist, so I can't even be accused of simply following party line

Anarchists are kind of on your same side . Read some of the Fascist's writings, especially Mussolini, who was the first Fascist leader. And then read historians' views on the economy of Fascist Italy first of all.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boshko
How was it fascist prior to that period?

It exibited many of the aspects of fasism, but not all of them. For example, while the Falange were supported by elements of the middle class, a lot of their support came from older classes still hanging on in Spain, like the clerics and alnd owners. Also, there wasn't a mass movement, but rather a military revolt.

The impetus was the same, an economic crisis and a combative working class which wouldn't kneel or take power.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boshko
Believers in what? Besides their own power and Chinese nationalism its hard to think of anything that the bureaucracy would have to seriously believe in.

There are still a good number of communists in the Communist Party. They were the ones arguing not to open the CCP to capitalists. I'm not saying they're the best communists every, but they aren't all completely cynical.

Come on, how can you believe this? China is as capitalist as, say, Europe.

Europe is far more captialist than China. Most of the Chinese economy is still in the state sector. Hell, the majority of people in China are still peasants. Capitalism is the most dynamic and powerful sector of the Chinese economy, but it's still not a majority.

I admit that the CCP going over to the capitalist road lock, stock, and barrel is certainly a strong possibility. But we've seen them swtich directions before and I'll bet we see them switch again.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Boshko

Why would that matter? As long as they get a good government what difference does it make how that government comes into being.

If Taiwan could ditch its dictatorship and become democratic, there's no reason why China can't.

Come on dude, can't you see the difference is China develops it's own form of democracy instead of instituting a 'Western-style' form? China has always been a prideful nation. They've been pushed around for centuries and now that they seem to have those same bullies scrambling to contain them, do you really think they'll just say "Hey, let's just say fair's fair"? I don't think so. I think China just wants everyone to realize that they aren't a second-class nation anymore and that they're tired of being taken advantage of.

As for Taiwan, sorry dude. Kai-shek got ousted by the people and fled to Formosa (Taiwan). Kai-shek hid his fascism under a shroud of democracy, and while that's all well and good...the legitimate government is the one founded on mainland China.

It's that old quote that comes to mind "Do the ends justify the means?". Kai-shek was just as brutal as Mao Zedong. But history tends to gloss over Kai-shek over Mao's actions. I don't like either of them. In fact, I hate how Mao screwed over China's past, but the fact remains that the masses chose chinese "communism" over Kai-shek's "democracy". And I support the people.

[Bosh]

They've been pushed around for centuries and now that they seem to have those same bullies scrambling to contain them, do you really think they'll just say "Hey, let's just say fair's fair"? I don't think so. I think China just wants everyone to realize that they aren't a second-class nation anymore and that they're tired of being taken advantage of.

Wow, that sounds exactly the same as early 20th Century Japanese rhetoric, right down to talking about wanting to be a first class nation.

Kai-shek hid his fascism under a shroud of democracy, and while that's all well and good...the legitimate government is the one founded on mainland China.

When did I mention CHang Kai-shek Are you denying that Taiwan is a democracy now ?

And I support the people.

Wha?