Conclave

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Hueij

And there are interpretations of the decline which have nothing to do with the role of the Pope.

Maybe... But over here we think otherwise. You should read some of the commentaries in our papers about the role of JP2. The initial "nothing bad about the dead" is over and reflection has started.

yeah there's similar commentary here in Australia - some of it quite venomous. Seems like the non catholics liked him more than the catholics.

He was in charge for 26 years and I can't think of a single memorable thing he said

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


yeah there's similar commentary here in Australia - some of it quite venomous. Seems like the no catholics liked him more than the catholics.

Maybe it's just that Americans liked him more than the non-Americans (besides the Poles). Not sure though

[Ecthy]

I think he said "urbi et orbi" now and again, some kind of a catchline there...

[Ben Kenobi]

This guy is suggesting that Paul was a stereotypical self-loathing homosexual, like the marine in American Beauty.

Self-loathing is focussed inwards. Preaching is focussed outwards.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Self-loathing is focussed inwards. Preaching is focussed outwards.

Haven't you heard of the concept that the most virulent homophobes are in fact gay themselves, and that they project their internal hatred for themselves outward against actual gays? It's a pretty common claim. I think that the poster name Thorn fits this description, judging by things I read in one of his recent threads. He was virulently anti-gay a few years ago, and now is openly gay.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


But church attendance has been falling in Europe for all denominations for decades anyway. Is the Pope responsible for falling attendance in the Church of England too?

The general decline in traditional expressions of spirituality in Western societies is one of the alternative interpretations I was alluding to.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by DanS
By the way, I don't really agree with AH's analysis of the church as a whole being in crisis. In the US, the church is in crisis in many areas because of the pedophilia scandals. But it doesn't really seem to go beyond that much. Asses are staying in seats, on the whole. Indeed, I think the crisis is in large part the result of too little oversight by Rome, not too much.

Are American Catholics really staying put? Or are their numbers stable (or growing) because O'Farrell and Kowalski are leaving the church, but are easily replaced in those pews by Gonzales and Dela Cruz? Just curious.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Are American Catholics really staying put? Or are their numbers stable (or growing) because O'Farrell and Kowalski are leaving the church, but are easily replaced in those pews by Gonzales and Dela Cruz? Just curious.

I think that there is a sizeable contingent of fundy catholics who are, surprisingly enough, becoming ever more closely allied with their fundy protestant peers.

The weirdest thing that I have noticed is that there are large numbers of Hispanic Pentacostals (of all denominations). Do they get struck by the spirit and start speaking English?

[Ben Kenobi]

Haven't you heard of the concept that the most virulent homophobes are in fact gay themselves, and that they project their internal hatred for themselves outward against actual gays?

It's a stereotype according to you, is it not?

My point stands, that internal hatred is focussed inwards, and manifests itself in many different ways apart from outward hatred.

The last thing someone who hates himself wants to do is to put those feelings towards other people. That's the whole point of focussing the hatred inwards, to keep from hurting other people.

[Ben Kenobi]

He was in charge for 26 years and I can't think of a single memorable thing he said

Well, is that your fault or his?

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's a stereotype according to you, is it not?

My point stands, that internal hatred is focussed inwards, and manifests itself in many different ways apart from outward hatred.

The last thing someone who hates himself wants to do is to put those feelings towards other people. That's the whole point of focussing the hatred inwards, to keep from hurting other people.

This idea that people would outwardly project internal angst isn't something that I made up today. It's a concept that has been around for a long time. You hate others for something that you consciously (or subconsciously) fear and hate about yourself. I'm not saying that I totally buy into this theory, and I think that those on the left like to use it too often, but I think that it does have some merit.

[Brent]

In reality, the gift of tongues is normally for the purpose of actually speaking the language necessary to communicate with those around you, and even then, it is normally not quite as supernatural as you hear of. Your capacity to learn a language through studying is increased is what it usually is.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Brent
In reality, the gift of tongues is normally for the purpose of actually speaking the language necessary to communicate with those around you, and even then, it is normally not quite as supernatural as you hear of. Your capacity to learn a language through studying is increased is what it usually is.

That hasn't been the case in any of the charasmatic services that I have attended. People claim that they're hit with the spirit, roll on the floor, speak in gibberish, etc. I think they're frauds.

[DanS]

Are American Catholics really staying put? Or are their numbers stable (or growing) because O'Farrell and Kowalski are leaving the church, but are easily replaced in those pews by Gonzales and Dela Cruz? Just curious.

Although my perception is that they are, I would be willing to hear evidence to the contrary. To be fair, it's difficult to know for sure, considering that Americans move from place to place so often and there has been a big urbanization process going on as well. That said, most of the churches that I have attended have been very well attended, even in the city at English-language masses (spanish-language masses don't seem to be supplanting English-language masses, but rather complementing them). Also, there are lots of churches being built.

There are wrinkles. As AH alludes to, the church's teaching on contraception is widely ignored, even in or especially in the red states. But so far that hasn't seemed to impact church attendance any more than other things in previous generations. The pedophilia scandals greatly negatively impacted the church's moral standing and I'm sure it impacted giving at least temporarily. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that attendance was negatively impacted temporarily too.

Also, as noted, the number of priests and religious has fallen off rather substantially. But I bet that has a lot more to do with no more 4th sons becoming priests, etc. The structure of the post-modern family seems particularly ill-suited to generating priests in great numbers. On the other hand, my brother was in the seminary and left it at the last minute to marry, so undoubtedly there are other issues going on with regard to post-modern life. The priest at my sister's parish just left the priesthood because of what is assumed to be marriage.

Tellingly, at the mass for the pope (attended by Bush), Cardinal McCarrick spent a good half minute praying for new priests and religious. The prayers for new priests keep getting longer and longer...

[Brent]

Yep, that sort of thing I do consider false usually. Genuine holy things are not for display like that.