Conclave

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not saying that I totally buy into this theory, and I think that those on the left like to use it too often

And that's the point I was after. All we have here is speculation, in which there are equally plausible answers to the same question.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
IMHO it depends on what the majority of the Vatican wishes.

Well, duh

[Ben Kenobi]

That hasn't been the case in any of the charasmatic services that I have attended. People claim that they're hit with the spirit, roll on the floor, speak in gibberish, etc. I think they're frauds.

Then you've seen something firsthand that I have not. The problem is that you look at pentecost, and how all the pilgrims who heard the apostles heard them in their own language, even though the apostles were unlearned men from Galilee.

One of the fruits of the spirit is tongues, and you are also right, that publicly, it should also manifest with the gift of interpretation so that everyone may be edified. Tongues can be in both a known language unknown to the speaker, or in a completely unknown tongue.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And that's the point I was after. All we have here is speculation, in which there are equally plausible answers to the same question.

I can accept that you don't buy the validity of the concept of projection. However, it seemed as though you were denying that such a concept even existed.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not doubting projection, just saying that there are equally plausible interpretations for the similar reactions. Not everyone who hates himself will self-project, it is just that those we will know about will self-project.

Those who keep it to themselves are going to be rather hard for us to pick them out of a crowd.

To say that because Apostle Paul hates himself, does not necessarily follow that he will project those feelings onto others.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'm not doubting projection, just saying that there are equally plausible interpretations for the similar reactions. Not everyone who hates himself will self-project, it is just that those we will know about will self-project.

Those who keep it to themselves are going to be rather hard for us to pick them out of a crowd.

To say that because Apostle Paul hates himself, does not necessarily follow that he will project those feelings onto others.

I think that that's a perfectly plausible argument, and I personally believe that there are many "homophobes" who aren't secretly homosexual. However, I thought that this Spong guy put an interesting spin on things. He is about a half-step away from being an Atheist, yet he calls himself a Bishop.

[Alexander's Horse]

Ben, its a bit hard to deny Saint Paul's self loathing because he refers to it over and over in his letters

[Ted Striker]

Regarding the Pope's failures, his lack of action regarding the American Priests and their fetish for having sex with children was a complete letdown.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Regarding the Pope's failures, his lack of action regarding the American Priests and their fetish for having sex with children was a complete letdown.

Some speculate this is part of why JP2 became more authoritarian as his reign as pontiff drew to a close. He had dropped the ball by not taking the situation seriously enough from the start (and by entrusting the situation to Cardinal Law), and got burned by it.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Regarding the Pope's failures, his lack of action regarding the American Priests and their fetish for having sex with children was a complete letdown.

Especially for US priests because only 3% were involved but because the Hierarchy covered up, and the Vatican played a role in that, all American priests got tarred with the same brush.

[Bosh]

It's more a function of US influence keeping the Latin American governments from harrassing American missionaries.

Well these days Latin American protestantism is much much more homegrown than it used to be and it (especially its Pentacostal varieties) are making deep inroads into Latin America and are growing faster than Catholicism in most of the rest of the Third World.

[Brent]

So does anyone actually think it would be better for the guy in charge to be less authoritarian than to act concerning what those priests did?

I guess my religion is less significant over all in South America than I thought. it has about 3 million members there out of 12 million worldwide, so I guess Protestantism is a bigger deal down there.

[Alexander's Horse]

the catholic church is an empty shell in some parts of Latin America - like Guatemala - in terms of active church goers the evangelicals have take over.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, its a bit hard to deny Saint Paul's self loathing because he refers to it over and over in his letters

But it is for many other reasons rather than being gay. After all, he had plenty of sins to loathe himself over.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wycoff


Wasn't Paul heavily influenced by a particularly misogynistic brand of Greek philosophy? Women were inferior, borderline evil. Sex in itself is bad. Must keep the body entirely pure.

Yes he was. The whole point about the New Testament is that people who imagine that it is for all time and the literal truth miss out a few important things- Saul/Paul was a zealous persecutor of another Jewish sect, who then converted to that sect. Converts have a great tendency to be even more ultra- whatever the prevailing tenets of their faith are- and there is a great swathe of anti-sex and anti-female literature and feeling in the early Christian churches- from people like St Jerome to Origen who castrated himself.

The sense that the Messiah was due at any time was of course prevalent amongst many of the Christian groups- which of course reflects the anti-worldly, anti-carnality feelings you'll find in the New Testament- a similar approach to some Buddhist/Hindu views of the material world as Maya, illusion.

Of course Alexandria had been in contact with India and the Hellenized areas of modern day Pakistan and Afghanistan and indeed the Seleucid Empire and its successor states in the Near East. I recall reading about Buddhist missionaries reaching Alexandria but can't recall the name of the book, unfortunately.

Anyway, ignore those awful management speak quotes about overseers and pay more attention to what actually happened- the history of married priests speaks louder than poor translations.