Conclave

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by DanS


It was the US conference of bishops that set up the policy. Unfortunately, the policy had wide currency among the bishops. The vatican didn't have that much, if any, input into the whole thing. This seems clear to me since the policy had not been replicated outside the US before the facade came crashing down.

Are you a practicing catholic Dan? This policy was global and the scandal you had over there was repeated over and over, in Australia, Ireland, you name it.

The Vatican was closely involved - the policy was limit liability, protect the property and the church's reputation, deny, deny, deny. Cardinal Bernard Law was reporting to the Vatican throughout, he saw the Pope several times. The Vatican and the Pope defended Cardinal Law and the stance that he took against litigants, who were seen as attacking the church. The Vatican stuck its head in the sand and offered no support to victim until that became publicly untenable.

One US priest who came forward as a victim, a victim, of paedophile activity was charged under Canon Law with causing scandal and bringing the church into disrepute. He was threatened with defrocking and excommunication. As with everything with this media driven and worldly Papacy, when the media got hold of the story the Vatican backed down.

[DanS]

As counter evidence, there's Schoenborn, who was the pope's man to clean up the pedophilia mess in Austria. He apologized to the Austrian laity well before the US bishops apologized to the American laity.

Also, if Cardinal Law was informing the Vatican of the progression of the scandals in the US, he sure did a piss poor job of it. As I understand it, the Pope asked the US cardinals why he hadn't been kept apprised of the situation. It wasn't a half year after that meeting that Law's resignation was accepted. Of course, you might discount this as plausible deniability. But Law appeared to be hanging in the wind for several years with no backup from the Vatican, so the question is begged: Where was the Vatican posse to defend Law?

Rather, I think that the church administration was not quite as centralized under this pope as you believe -- at least in the US, where there was a strong council of bishops.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by DanS
As counter evidence, there's Schoenborn, who was the pope's man to clean up the pedophilia mess in Austria. He apologized to the Austrian laity well before the US bishops apologized to the American laity.

This would be the same Cardinal Schoenborn who backed JPII for Pope and then quickly became disillusioned and a vocal and trenchant of JPII until his dying day, only a month before JPII?

The same Schoenborn who sacked the conservative theologian who was sexually abusing his seminarians and exposed in sensational publicity but was considered untouchable because he was very close to JPII and one of his main theological supporters and confidantes?

I imagine those 2 are going to have a few words in heaven.

[DanS]

Well, I don't know which Schoenborn did the sacking, but I know which did the cleanup.

[Alexander's Horse]

So do I - in the US case once Vatican loyalists like Bernard Law, who hitherto dominated, were thoroughly discredited by the paedophile scandal, the US Bishop's conference itself took tough action to clean up mess, made heartfelt apologies, publicly sided with the victims, started paying compensation, sacking tainted priests and generally cleaning out the Augian stables. It was inspirational stuff.

[DanS]

The US bishop's conference did the cleanup? As I know the events, that was from Rome, rather. Why would the pope entrust anybody but his closest leutenants to be the cleanup crew?

[Alexander's Horse]

Nope it was the Bishops Conference, 2 or 3 years ago. The Vatican got on board very late.

The other thing that happened was the laeity took action, starting in Boston diocese where parishioners withheld tithes, formed protest groups and basically forced Bernard Law to step down.

This is way things should work.

[DanS]

I cross-edited you.

[DanS]

The other thing that happened was the laeity took action, starting in Boston diocese where parishioners withheld tithes, formed protest groups and basically forced Bernard Law to step down.

I agree with you that much of this was very valuable, except we could have done without some of the protest groups.

[Alexander's Horse]

Well anyway we shouldn't lose sight of the many good things JPII did.

Its going to be interesting to see who they pick because there is a lot of work to do.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh please, not another misunderstanding of Paul's letters to the Romans! Go back and read Romans 1 and 2 entirely.

Romans is like my favourite book dude.

In fact, if you read just beyond the passages you cited you'll find Paul condeming violence, jealousy, bragging, pride, gossip and a number of other more mundane sins with equal alacrity, claiming that all of them deserve death.

The argument is not that Romans was intended to be an encyclical against sodomy, but that Paul was willing to confront sodomy as a sin.

I could just have easily quoted the others, but since Romans condemns both the actions of men and women, it is especially valuable.

He then sets up the former Jews in the congregation by pointing out to them that the very pride they feel in their religion condemns them just as surely as if they were plowing the dirt road of the boy next door. Doing so he lowers them to equal status with their gentile co-parishoners and at the same time pronounces Christ's mission of salvation to both.

Very true. He lets the Jews puff themselves up by tearing into the sins of the gentiles, and then deflates them in chapter 2 by digging into the sins of the Jews.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben Kenobi to note - which raises an interesting point - after conversion there should be some sort of novice period - come hither Grasshopper........

Yes, master AH?

[Alexander's Horse]

ah the neophyte Ben - post less, read more

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
ah the neophyte Ben - post less, read more

Read and comprehend more.

[DanS]

It would be a rare catholic indeed who would know his Bible more than does a religious protestant convert. AH should have known better.