Anti-Semitism in France

[GeneralTacticus]

This is the first I heard of this. It seems like NAZI propaganda to me. I think the truth is that US bombs were only fairly accurate even given the Norden bombsight.

They had whole cities flattened during the war. Do recall that during WWII, it was considered lucky if a bomb fell within a few miles of the target.

BTW, if the Nazi's take up positions in civilian areas and those civilian areas are destroyed, why is it the Allies fault that they were destroyed. I think the blame should be given to the Nazi's just like they should be given some credit for abandoning Rome and Paris without a fight.

They weren't bombing Nazis in civilian areas, they were bombing Nazi targets and most of the bombs missed.

Gen. Tac.: he's french, you know.

Sorry

It's not like France was alone in cozying up to the master race. http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

After the war, we brought hundreds of them back to the United States to help us with our anti-communist crusade.

I'm well aware of that, but that wasn't what we were talking about.

[CyberGnu]

JW:

What about, for example, abortion? It is oppression of the mother (or would-be mother) to deny her the right to choose, but it is also oppression of the infant to kill it. It's a lose-lose situation that results in oppression no matter what. Under that definition of Reprehensible, any opinion on abortion is reprehensible.

I don't think you've made the case that it is oppressive. Mandatory abortion would be opressive, and I have no problem defining that as reprehnsible...

[CyberGnu]

Edan:

Are you trying to explain and justify bigotry?

Are you saying that arabs that hate skinheads are bigoted?

[CyberGnu]

Chegitz: ?

[CyberGnu]

I don't like to speak of people as a group, UNLESS we're speaking about the central element of the group, and the central group of skins is to hate non-aryans *** (see note below)

Would a skin be allowed to stay in a skin group after showing that he/she doesn't hate non-aryans?

Yep. I knew at leat one skinhead with a persian girlfriend.

In stockholm there was a notable "black skinhead".

Would a jew be not counted as a jew after attacking Israel?

Actually, the jewish community seems very vehement against what they call the "self-hating jews"...

[CyberGnu]

Shi: Basically, at some point everyone must take some responsibility for their own actions. I'm all for freedom of speech, but if I walk up and call your mother a whore to your face, I should not complain when I get a split lip. See what I mean?

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Yep. I knew at leat one skinhead with a persian girlfriend.

In stockholm there was a notable "black skinhead".

You're surprising me with that examples (although ancient Persian is from the indo-european branch of languages...), but, can you provided me some details about the "black skinhead"? I'm not saying you're lying (of course), but this so weird that I want to know more details ... It remids that film about the nazi jew

Actually, the jewish community seems very vehement against what they call the "self-hating jews"...

I can assure you that there are jews that doesn't support Israel, and (very) few other jews say that they are not jews...

[Worthingtons]

CyberGnu, you cannot excuse the discraceful actions of Moslem's by saying the French Jews should not associate themselves with Isreal. Yes, I agree free can go too far but it is NOT too far to associate one's self with thier 'home' country (in this case the innocent lad didnt even do this!). Remember what Afganistan did to America - thier terrorist harbouring led to Sept 11 so should Arabs who originally originated from Afganistan deny thier country??
Riduculas - it cannot be excused that Moslem's are out of order and that thier religion is now of MORE danger (to the world) than NAZI ideology....

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Rothy
CyberGnu, you cannot excuse the discraceful actions of Moslem's by saying the French Jews should not associate themselves with Isreal. Yes, I agree free can go too far but it is NOT too far to associate one's self with thier 'home' country (in this case the innocent lad didnt even do this!). Remember what Afganistan did to America - thier terrorist harbouring led to Sept 11 so should Arabs who originally originated from Afganistan deny thier country??
Riduculas - it cannot be excused that Moslem's are out of order and that thier religion is now of MORE danger (to the world) than NAZI ideology....

Roothy, I want to say you

1) Israel is not the 'home' country for all jews. Many jews are not israelians. It's important to keep in mind that, altough, Israel is a 'jew state', not all jew are from Israel

2) I agree with you that taking association with a country is not going too far. It's important to understand that you associate with the people of these, and you can (or can not) disagree with the goverment of these country.

3) The muslim religion is not dangerous for the world, in my humble opinion. Only a small group of integrist are dangerous, but there are a (american) billion of muslim, and the vast majority of them are peace-lovers, like you and me

[Shi Huangdi]

"I don't think you've made the case that it is oppressive. Mandatory abortion would be opressive, and I have no problem defining that as reprehnsible..."

Abortion is opressive to the baby it kills.

"Shi: Basically, at some point everyone must take some responsibility for their own actions. I'm all for freedom of speech, but if I walk up and call your mother a whore to your face, I should not complain when I get a split lip. See what I mean? "

There is a difference between an insult and taking a position on the Israel/Palestine issue which is hardly a black and white measure of opression. For instance, Cybergnu, you would not say it was reprehensible to fly the Palestinian flag would you, even though the Pals are currently engaged in suicide bombings with polls showing a majority of Palestinians supporting it.

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Edan:

Are you saying that arabs that hate skinheads are bigoted?

If they can't differentiate between skinheads spouting hatred or performing criminal acts and those who are doing so because it's a fashion statement (or the haircut went a little further than they wanted to ) then yes, I would.

[Spiffor]

I just came back from my weekend.

Ned :
Racism in France isn't new, and its progression is very slow, even though one must acknowledge it exists. This racism is very politically incorrect, and the incarnation of racism, Le Pen, is harshly fought by the majority of the French. Last elections, he had 18% of votes, and the liar/crook Chirac got 82% of the votes, almost as much from the Republican right than from the Left (only the leftists didn't call to vote for Chirac). The demonstrations against Le Pen were impressive, and showed our fascist extraordianire is the most hated politician in France.

You shouldn't confuse our "antiamerican" policies with a regrowth of nationalism : few French people wave their flag like most Americans of this forum. In France, a forum like FFZ would be called a pack of far-right bigots. The officials of France, including Chirac, have made a big effort in acknowledging the horrors of the past (collaboration with the nazis, torture during the Algeria war), and most French people are perfectly aware we're not perfect, and have a less-than-spotless past. By the same token, nationalist rags like US News and World Report aren't imaginable in France.

The governments have failed fighting against the old racisms, anti-arab and anti-black. It has, however, nearly decimated the old antisemitism, which almost only belongs to old people now, and should die with them. It has a great deal to do to fight against the new racisms : new-look antisemitism, new-look anti-whitism, new-look anti-arabism. But these new racisms (and in fact the old ones save antisemitism) are all part of a bigger picture, that is the lack of integration and the existence of ghettos.

There is nearly no trace of nazism (that is : complete and genocidial hate for other races, mindless flagwaving, mmilitary agressiveness) in France.
The rise of racism sure is worrying, but you shouldn't jump to hastened conclusions. The rise of racism has been worrying in all European countries recently.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Chegitz: ?

What?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yaroslav
You're surprising me with that examples (although ancient Persian is from the indo-european branch of languages...), but, can you provided me some details about the "black skinhead"? I'm not saying you're lying (of course), but this so weird that I want to know more details ... It remids that film about the nazi jew

I knew a black racist skinhead, that is, racists against other Blacks. He didn't just have issues, he had a whole freakin' subscription.

I can assure you that there are jews that doesn't support Israel, and (very) few other jews say that they are not jews...

In the US, Jews who are critical of Israel are routinely called self-hating Jews.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's not a realistic supposition?

Cybergnu:
Nice way of dealing with the point at hand. Ignore the point, and it may go away, will it not?

Muslims are being persecuted because some of the French are making the exact same argument that I did, that essentially all Muslims are the same, that if one Muslim is a terrorist they all are.

How is this position any different from yours, that essentially, all Jews oppress and hate the Muslims, and are thereby deserving of oppression themselves?

In a perfect world, no one would be persecuted for their religion. But in the real world, religion and politics mix... And basically, this is a political issue, not a religious one.

So your argument goes like this.

Our world is horrible, so we need to deal with the world by adopting the tactics of the world.

Tough. I say the only way to get out of the cycle of violence between Jews and Muslims is for both sides to see the other as a person, equally valuable.

That's why these kids, and they are kids, be they in France or in Israel are getting hurt, because some adults no longer see them as persons.