Anti-Semitism in France

[Az]

? economical help? we saw how well that worked for Egypt.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel
? economical help? we saw how well that worked for Egypt.

Azazel, about Egypt. Do they have a real political system there? All I see is a President who seems to never leave once in power - like Saddam.

I suggest a major cause for backwardness in Arabia is the lack of democracy, not a lack of money. Some Arab countries are quite well off financially, but are still backward because they do not have true freedom.

The problem with US aid to Egypt is that is permits the government to survive without political reform.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel
? economical help? we saw how well that worked for Egypt.

Money straight to the governemnt to arm itself and economic aid are not the same thing. Besides, Egypt is no more violent than India, and plenty of Israelis go to India for a good time.

[yaroslav]

If I recall it correctly, last time Mubarak was "elected" with 99% of polls. It is rumored that he wants to take his son as the next president...

[Az]

and plenty of Israelis go to India for a good time.

hehe, so you heard, huh?

I was in Egypt. the place is dirt poor. I am not saying that it is violent now, and I am hope I am wrong about the future, but it seems like a keg of gunpoweder, just waiting.

[Ned]

Clearly, Egypt has no political freedom. I also read that it is a socialist nation and that the only jobs for the educated are government jobs. There is no effective private enterprise system.

If this is a accurate protrayal, Egypt is ripe for a violent revolution if they do not start fixing thing voluntarily.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel

hehe, so you heard, huh?

I was in Egypt. the place is dirt poor. I am not saying that it is violent now, and I am hope I am wrong about the future, but it seems like a keg of gunpoweder, just waiting.

Which is exactly why I don't back this war: when the poor of Egypt see what they see on their TV, it weakens the support for those liberals and free-market spokesmen who are trying to modernize Egypt and restrenghtens the hands of the Islamist. But in fact Egypt is no poorer than India really, another powerkeg waiting to go off, and a much bigger one at that.

If we want to democratize the ME, the place to start is Egypt: for the last century it has been the vanguard of Arab thought. But isntead we side with Mubarak and his security forces hping they do keep the Islamist down. We are told this admin. wants to democratize the ME. the proof of that is not how it handles undemocratic enemies, but undemocratic friends.

[Az]

it weakens the support for those liberals and free-market spokesmen who are trying to modernize Egypt and restrenghtens the hands of the Islamist.

I HONESTLY don't hear of any. the place is like an ice structure on the sun. rigid, slowly melting away and could collapse anyday. The economy there sucks. simply sucks.

But in fact Egypt is no poorer than India really, another powerkeg waiting to go off, and a much bigger one at that.

Actually, despite having a very evil and immoral religion, the place is relatively quite, amazingly enough. The only reason I can see danger, is the muslim-hindu conflict.

An amazing statistic: to a question "Are you perfectly satisfied with your life?", the number of positive respondents in India was the 3rd highest in the world after USA, and Britain, 28%.

We are told this admin. wants to democratize the ME. the proof of that is not how it handles undemocratic enemies, but undemocratic friends.

Agreed. Sadly, I don't see anyway the US interfering ( peacefully!) in Egypt can improve the situation.

[Sirotnikov]

Actually I think that you're incorrect.

If there are undemocratic friends, that can be peacefull coerced to democracy - that's a policy to folllow. That's what should be done with Iran and Egypt and Jordan is half-way there.

But Iraq and Syria are lost.

In any case, I'm all for benevolent dictatorships. I think that the dictatorial rule over Egypt and Jordan helped both the peoples of the respective countries, and us (Israel and the USA) much more than it did harm.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap
What was the last time you saw thousands die in secterian riots in an Arab state?

The decade long orgy of mass sectarian violence which was Lebennon comes to mind the systematic oppression and terrorization of Christian Assyrians in Iraq, the periodic yet extreamly savage fights between sunni and shi-ite, and the (ok not Arab but still middleeastern) systematic oppression of Zoroastrian, Christian, Jewish, and Sunni minorities in Iran.

Every society has the maladity of hate but the middle east has a worse case then just about everyone else.

[CyberGnu]

Rothy"

CyberGnu, you cannot excuse the discraceful actions of Moslem's by saying the French Jews should not associate themselves with Isreal. Yes, I agree free can go too far but it is NOT too far to associate one's self with thier 'home' country (in this case the innocent lad didnt even do this!). Remember what Afganistan did to America - thier terrorist harbouring led to Sept 11 so should Arabs who originally originated from Afganistan deny thier country??

They don't have to dissociate themselves with Israel par se, only Israels actions.

There is an enormous difference between supporting your country and supporting its practices. If your home country is engaging in a practice that is destructive, your patriotic duty is to oppose it...

[CyberGnu]

BD:

Abortion is opressive to the baby it kills.

Except that one cannot be oppressed wihout sentience...

I think this is a tangential discussion, and should be kept to a different thread, though.

There is a difference between an insult and taking a position on the Israel/Palestine issue which is hardly a black and white measure of opression. For instance, Cybergnu, you would not say it was reprehensible to fly the Palestinian flag would you, even though the Pals are currently engaged in suicide bombings with polls showing a majority of Palestinians supporting it.

If the palestinians weren't trying to resist occupation, I would.

[CyberGnu]

If they can't differentiate between skinheads spouting hatred or performing criminal acts and those who are doing so because it's a fashion statement (or the haircut went a little further than they wanted to ) then yes, I would.

Well, then. You have no problem holding the group resonsible for the political views they espouse.

[CyberGnu]

Chegitz:

What?

Cbeast? Que?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin


The decade long orgy of mass sectarian violence which was Lebennon comes to mind the systematic oppression and terrorization of Christian Assyrians in Iraq, the periodic yet extreamly savage fights between sunni and shi-ite, and the (ok not Arab but still middleeastern) systematic oppression of Zoroastrian, Christian, Jewish, and Sunni minorities in Iran.

Every society has the maladity of hate but the middle east has a worse case then just about everyone else.

Yeah, except Latin America, South Asia, and Africa..besides those places, the Arab world is definitely the worst. Oh, and the "systematic oppresion of minorities in Iran", where is the evidence? Lats i heard 13 Jews were tired as spies, out of the largest Jewish community in the ME outside of Irsael, and several of them were freed recently. So fi you want to claim "systematic oppresion" you will have to give me some proof.