The vatican shows tolerance and understanding

[Ned]

Originally posted by Frogger
And the Pope has no right to tell people who is going to Hell or not.

In the Catholic Church that is up to God and God alone.

And the reason for that is that the Church teaches forgiveness. However, this is thru the sacraments, which makes excommunication in combination with a mortal sin quite effective in sending the sinner in only one direction.

[Shi Huangdi]

"If war results because one or the other side failed in its moral duty, then the pope could declare the person who failed in the duty to be guilty of a mortal sin, and all who join the "false" cause to also be guilty."

The Pope couldn't even stop France from intervening to help the German Protestants in the 30 years war. This was in the 17th century and with a Catholic naiton as the object of the Church's focus. Now this is the 21st century with two protestant nations and 1 moslem nation involved.

"There are a large number of Christians in Iraq. "

Not Roman Catholics

"It also might have some effect on the Muslims who, after all, worship the same God."

No. The Pope's words don't even have any affect with Protestants. It is only a small minority of Catholics who completely obey the Church on every issue- after all many Catholics do you know that really don't use birth control?

"However, this is thru the sacraments, which makes excommunication in combination with a mortal sin quite effective in sending the sinner in only one direction."

First off, i don't think the Church teaches that forgiveness of sins is impossible without the sacrament of penance, even for Catholics- hence the possibility of deathbed contrition comes into play. And I am certain the Church doesn't teach that God never forgives the sins of non-catholics because they don't recieve penance, and excommunication would again do good for either Bush or Saddam. Excommunication means you are kicked out of the Church. To be kicked out of the Church, you have to be in the Church in the first place. Neither Bush or Saddam are.

Moreover, fighting for a specific ruler would not be a mortal sin in any case. Fighting an unjust war could be a moral sin- since it would be a moral issue. It can set down some general guidelines for what it is and what is not an unjust war. However saying specific wars are unjust would be going beyond setting moral doctrines; and hence the Church's current opposition of the war is a political position and not a moral teaching- hence dissent is nessecarily tolerated. Moreover, it is a nessecary component of a mortal sin for there to be knowledge on the part of the sinner that they are sinner. So if you were fighting in good faith and believing you are fighting a just war, you would not have any sin against your soul.



Right, now we have a very skeptical Catholic explaining theology to a Protestant. Do you really want to keep up this pointlessness?

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


they do in the US

Jon Miller

An 8 month abortion on a healthy mother and baby? I thought that was illegal there.

[Ben Kenobi]

odd:

Of course that if the girl was raped by a bishop they would not excommunicate him, for god is forgiving and they should give a second chance to their loved brother.

They haven't found the rapist yet.



The way excommunication works, or disfellowshiping in my church is that if the person is repentent, they can return to the church. No different for the rapist, as for those who perform abortions.

Yep, the Church has been way too lenient towards abusive clergy.

Shi, hopefully this will change in the future.

Frogger:

And the Pope has no right to tell people who is going to Hell or not. In the Catholic Church that is up to God and God alone.

Disfellowshiping, as a part of church discipline intends to restore the believer to proper behavior, while guarding the health of the congregation. I don't think they can lose salvation even while disfellowshiped. I'm not sure about Ned's mortal sin exception.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mike H:

An 8 month abortion on a healthy mother and baby? I thought that was illegal there.

Abortions are legal for all nine months provided the pregnancy becomes a threat to the health of the mother.

Doe v. Bolton defines health as physical, emotional and other factors, including age can all be justifications for abortions.

Not many doctors will perform 8 month abortions, but for the right fee, you can find them.

[monolith94]

In Sioux culture, for the crime of rape they literally cut off a guys balls and let him bleed to death. From just that wound. Nice, huh?

The last rape they had was 20 years ago though, so I guess it works...

[Ned]

Shi, Why did St. Augustine ever involve himself in the issue of a "just" war unless it was to determine when it was permissible to kill another human being without committing a mortal sin?

What you say simply reduces to, if it feels good, do it. That is neither philosophy nor morality.

I think the Pope should get involved in international disputes. But he should do so by determining what causes are just, and when diplomacy still has a chance, by principled analysis. He actually owes this to Catholics and perhaps every Christian or Muslim or Jew who believes in God. Because if a war is not just, the consequences would be that a soldier, killing the enemy, would be committing murder.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ned:

Looked up your question:

Does a Catholic lose salvation because of excommunication?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Excommunication:

"Among living persons, those who have not been baptized have never been members of the Christian society and therefore cannot be deprived of spiritual benefits to which they have never had a right; in this way, infidels, pagans, Mohammedans, and Jews, though outside of the Church, are not excommunicated."

"Considered from a moral and juridical standpoint, the guilt requisite for the incurring of excommunication implies, first, the full use of reason; second sufficient moral liberty; finally, a knowledge of the law and even of the penalty."

"Hence arise various extenuating reasons (causæ excusantes), based on lack of guilt, which prevent the incurring of excommunication:"

In this case, ignorance excuses the young girl. The Catholic church defines age of reason = puberty, so a pregnant girl cannot be excused just because of her age.

(3) Ignorance. The general principle is, that whosoever is ignorant of the law is not responsible for transgressing it; and whosoever is ignorant of the penalty does not incur it. But the application of this principle is often complicated and delicate. The following considerations, generally admitted, may serve as a guide:

As for loss of salvation:

(2) The excommunicated person who remains a year without making any effort to obtain absolution (insordescentia) becomes suspected of heresy and can be followed up and condemned as guilty of such (Council of Trent, Sess. XXV, cap. iii, De ref.; cf. Ferraris, s. v. "Insordescens").

In any case, a heretic may renounce and return to the church, provided that he repents. Therefore, no one who is excommunicated will necessarily go to hell because of the excommunication.

[Heresson]

Catholicism is obsolete.

Congratulations.
You've just offended 1000000000 people.

Heresson she was 9, barely developed to cope with childbirth the chance was very high that if she had the baby she would die.

You think she should die because she was raped?

She shouldn't, but why her child should?
I agree that in such case, abortion is understandable, the same like killing someone in self-defence. Still, it's a sin to bare.
That's why I understand condemnation of it by the church. However, I think that excommunication was just dumb, because they do not excommunicate all the sinners. Where's their forgivance, I don't know.

Why did they wait until the fourth month anyway?

I'm strongly anti-abort but I accept abort under certain circumstances, such as rape, undeveloped/carrying a horrible and painful disease featus, risk of death for the mother and underage pregnant mothers. All those "liberal" activists seeking the "woman's choice" according to which a woman should be free to abort even at the 8th month of age and alike.. screw them, a featus isn't just some kind of multicellular blob, killing him would be the same as drowning a newborn baby- if you don't want a baby give him a chance to be adopted, damn! Who are you to decide to kill someone?

I agree. Not entirely, but I agree

I find it interesting that the Church developed the doctrine of a "just war" that authorizes mass murder, but cannot come to authorize a doctrine of "just homicide" in cases like this.

They developed it only because they came back to the Old Testament, which I find wrong.

"There are a large number of Christians in Iraq. "

Not Roman Catholics

But Chaldeans, and there is at least 0,5mln of them, are under pope's souvereignity

[Plan Austral]

The chancellor of Irak is a catholic of caldean rite.

[Heresson]

Exactly