The vatican shows tolerance and understanding

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I've hardly been a big fan of my Church recently, but if the case was the abortion was not medically nessecary, it is absolutely correct. Abortion is murder and is punished by the Church with excommunication. Don't like, find another church.

"Medical necessity" is a vague term. Since abortion is illegal in Nicaragua, except by judicial or administrative petition for special circumstances, and the parents followed that procedure, presumably there was some medical opinion that the abortion was medically necessary. Considering that 9 year old kids of campesinos tend to be on the small and malnourished side, there may well have been significant medical issues there - I'd assume that's the case, but the article doesn't cover it.

For the Church's position to be "correct" it should apply excommunication to ALL who have or give consent, or participate in abortions. Since the Church also opposes capital punishment on the same grounds of the sanctity of human life, it should also excommunicate judges, jurors, governors, and any other official or participant in a capital punishment decision.

Oh, and the Church no longer sanctions war - so all who permit or participate in killing in war should be excommunicated. Only if the Church adopts a consistent moral framework to the taking of human life is it's position in this case "correct."

[Shi Huangdi]

"there may well have been significant medical issues there - I'd assume that's the case, but the article doesn't cover it."

Exactly, the Church does allow for abortion to save the life of the mother. I take it the Church did not believe that to be the case.

"For the Church's position to be "correct" it should apply excommunication to ALL who have or give consent, or participate in abortions. "

I may be mistaken, but I do believe the Church does have de facto communication for all involved in the abortion.

"Since the Church also opposes capital punishment on the same grounds of the sanctity of human life, it should also excommunicate judges, jurors, governors, and any other official or participant in a capital punishment decision."

You don't seem to quite understand the Church's doctrines here. While Church leaders have spoken out against the death penalty, that doesn't mean the Church holds an execution to be the same as me shooting a guy randomly on the street. In fact, the Cathecism does say that the death penalty is allowed under certain circumstances.

"Oh, and the Church no longer sanctions war "

Again, that's wrong. The Church leadership has spoken out against a proposed war on Iraq, but that doesn't mean the Church is totally pacifist. Church Doctrine still allows for a "just war" under certain circumstances, and IIRC the US Bishops did in fact call the Afghanistan War a just war.

"Only if the Church adopts a consistent moral framework to the taking of human life is it's position in this case "correct.""

It's not the Church's position that an innocent baby in the mother's womb is not the same as a convicted murderer or an enemy soldier.....




Ugh, I hate having to defend the Church...

[Ben Kenobi]

Especially in light of the fact that the pregnancy put the mother's life at risk.

DD:

So does abortion in the 4th month. What happened in this case was that the doctors found that the pregnancy posed some risk, but not to the mother's life.

I don't agree with the excommunication of the 9 year old. Could she consent to the medical procedure? If not, then how can she be held accountable for her actions?

I may be mistaken, but I do believe the Church does have de facto communication for all involved in the abortion.

Shi:
The Catholic church enforces excommunication for anyone who works for planned parenthood, or has performed abortions.

[Shi Huangdi]

"I don't agree with the excommunication of the 9 year old. "

She wasn't excommunicated, only her parents and the doctors were.

[Ben Kenobi]

For DD and the others:

But the Catholic Church in Nicaragua condemned the abortion, excommunicating the couple and the doctors who carried out the procedure.

[JCG]

Hopefully the Vatican will eventually be more reasonable in these cases, and they could still go back and revoke the excommunication, but that's mainly wishful thinking....

[Odd]

Of course that if the girl was raped by a bishop they would not excommunicate him, for god is forgiving and they should give a second chance to their loved brother.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by MikeH


Never seen anyone seeking that and no doctor would do it anyway.

they do in the US

Jon Miller

[Ned]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


"Oh, and the Church no longer sanctions war - so all who permit or participate in killing in war should be excommunicated. Only if the Church adopts a consistent moral framework to the taking of human life is it's position in this case "correct."

I believe the Pope's position is that war is just only if all other avenues have been exhausted.

I suspect he agrees with the French that inspections "may" work if given more time rather than more cooperation.

However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell, and to the US and the UK that we had to wait until that date or else Bush, Blair and all who participated in the war on the Allied side would similarly be excommunicated and damned to Hell.

Then the pope's words might have power behind them.

However, the pope is ultimately a coward. He will not be tough on Saddam because he does not want to antagonize Muslims.

I suspect when the true nature of Hitler's regime because apparent, that the pope at that time also failed to raise any objection to the murder of communists, Gypsies and Jews because he feared Hitler. A true coward.

[Shi Huangdi]

"Of course that if the girl was raped by a bishop they would not excommunicate him, for god is forgiving and they should give a second chance to their loved brother."

Yep, the Church has been way too lenient towards abusive clergy.




"However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell, and to the US and the UK that we had to wait until that date or else Bush, Blair and all who participated in the war on the Allied side would similarly be excommunicated and damned to Hell.

Then the pope's words might have power behind them."

1) Neither nor Saddam are Catholic, so they wouldn't listen to him. And excommunication means to be kicked out of the Church- doesn't apply to Bush or Saddam since neither are in the Church.

2) The Church doesn't make a policy of saying "do this or you will go to hell". While the Church does have certain saints it maintains in heaven, the Church does not definitively say anybody is in hell. The Church does occasionaly declare actions to be mortal sins in which you would be damned if you died with those sins without repenting of them, but it doesn't say anyone is in hell because of the possibility of a perfect deathbed contrition.

[KrazyHorse]

However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell

Do you even know what excommunication is?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Frogger

However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell

Do you even know what excommunication is?

Yes, it really doesn't work on Muslims, does it?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
"Of course that if the girl was raped by a bishop they would not excommunicate him, for god is forgiving and they should give a second chance to their loved brother."

Yep, the Church has been way too lenient towards abusive clergy.




"However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell, and to the US and the UK that we had to wait until that date or else Bush, Blair and all who participated in the war on the Allied side would similarly be excommunicated and damned to Hell.

Then the pope's words might have power behind them."

1) Neither nor Saddam are Catholic, so they wouldn't listen to him. And excommunication means to be kicked out of the Church- doesn't apply to Bush or Saddam since neither are in the Church.

2) The Church doesn't make a policy of saying "do this or you will go to hell". While the Church does have certain saints it maintains in heaven, the Church does not definitively say anybody is in hell. The Church does occasionaly declare actions to be mortal sins in which you would be damned if you died with those sins without repenting of them, but it doesn't say anyone is in hell because of the possibility of a perfect deathbed contrition.

I think the pope would have the authority to declare the when the demands of the one side were justified and when the other side was unjustified in their defiance. This pretty much is the UN role today, but I think the pope does have the power to determine the issues as well. If war results because one or the other side failed in its moral duty, then the pope could declare the person who failed in the duty to be guilty of a mortal sin, and all who join the "false" cause to also be guilty.

However, it seems to me that in the current situation, the pope is not being realistic about Saddam. The pope has told him that he must disarm, and has told Bush, Blair and Asnar to give inspections more time; however, inspections cannot work without Saddam's cooperation. So, the real cause of war here is Saddam, not the Bush, Blair and Asnar.

There are a large number of Christians in Iraq. The pope's message concerning mortal sin may have some effect on them. It also might have some effect on the Muslims who, after all, worship the same God.

[KrazyHorse]

And the Pope has no right to tell people who is going to Hell or not.

In the Catholic Church that is up to God and God alone.

[faded glory]

As a Catholic im very upset the pope takes a position some 80% of American Catholics are in favor of.

While the Pope does have some valid points, and while I understand he's taking his usual pacificst role during wartime. I dont think he understands the serouisness of the present situation.