Are all races equal?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Caligastia



You have a great sense of humor.

Yes, I agree- but unlike yours and the You rantier author's, it's intentional. Ancient blue men- why not paisley, or striped? Anyone for purple polka dot pithecanthropus?

Really, it is to larf.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Status differences have nothing to do with racial differences. There are plenty of differences in status within any particular race. Altruism has more to do with helping those who cannot help you regardless of status.

Altruism is when you help someone purely out of the goodness of your heart, and not for your own material gain. For this to be possible, humans must be of different status so that those of higher status can exercise altruism towards those of lower status. Without situations of social inequality, there can be no altruism.

I guess the biggest philosophical problem I have with your position is the concept that all persons are equal in worth and value, though differing in physical capacity.

Spiritually, we are all brothers and sisters. If we recognise that simple fact, and stop thinking in purely material terms, it's easy to understand why God loves us all equally.

Sections like this cause me to doubt Urantia's understanding of equality of worth.

That's because you have to realise that a person's race is completely seperate from their spiritual worth.

Finally, something I think Che will take offense to:

The Urantia Book is very blunt in it's discussion of biological matters. Where is the need for sensitivity and tact when you are basically talking about different types of organic matter? Once again, you must separate the idea of a person's body being in any way related to their worth.

Instead of purifying bloodlines through keeping races seperate, you wish to purify bloodlines by combining the best of each race. It's the same concept rooted in the same corrosive ethic that some people are less valuable than others. How does one decide who the valuable people are?

The real personality, the real person, has nothing to do with flesh and blood. Some genetic compositions are less valuable than others, but this has nothing to do with the worth of the person that resides within that body.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Yes, I agree- but unlike yours and the You rantier author's, it's intentional. Ancient blue men- why not paisley, or striped? Anyone for purple polka dot pithecanthropus?

Really, it is to larf.

If you think it's all so worthless, why are you continuing this conversation? It must be for the sake of your own ego, as you have no interest in discussion, only ridicule.

[ottok]

Egual or at similar?

[Ben Kenobi]

Altruism is when you help someone purely out of the goodness of your heart, and not for your own material gain.

Surely a poor person could offer help to a rich person out of the goodness of their own heart, and not expect recompense? I agree this is not the usual case, but by your definition this should be possible. The key is not the difference in status, but the intention, to help without expecting reward.

Spiritually, we are all brothers and sisters. If we recognise that simple fact, and stop thinking in purely material terms, it's easy to understand why God loves us all equally.

That's because you have to realise that a person's race is completely seperate from their spiritual worth.

Agreed.

Some genetic compositions are less valuable than others, but this has nothing to do with the worth of the person that resides within that body.

Where is the need for sensitivity and tact when you are basically talking about different types of organic matter?

Ahh. Now I see the divide.

Is the spiritual realm completely seperate from the physical realm, or is there some connection and interaction between the two?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Caligastia


If you think it's all so worthless, why are you continuing this conversation? It must be for the sake of your own ego, as you have no interest in discussion, only ridicule.

I like the Theatre of the Absurd.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by obiwan18


Surely a poor person could offer help to a rich person out of the goodness of their own heart, and not expect recompense? I agree this is not the usual case, but by your definition this should be possible. The key is not the difference in status, but the intention, to help without expecting reward.

Yes, but differences in status are necessary, because even in your scenario, the poor person would have helped because they recognised a need of some kind. The action is unselfish of course, but there has to be a need of some kind in order to initiate action. The difference between one who needs and one who doesn't is a difference in status, even if it is only momentary.

Ahh. Now I see the divide.

Is the spiritual realm completely seperate from the physical realm, or is there some connection and interaction between the two?

There are connections, but not in any way that would affect the true value of any individual.

[ottok]

and?

[Master Zen]

This thread is starting to get waaay to religious...

So it's bye bye time for me!

BTW, ottok, you RULE! (even if I don't understand half the things you say)

[Ben Kenobi]

Caligastia-

If the body is just a sack of meat, then why does it matter that some are 'degenerate' or worse off?

Why should we try to improve the human race by cross-breeding the strong people from each race?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Caligastia-

If the body is just a sack of meat, then why does it matter that some are 'degenerate' or worse off?

Why should we try to improve the human race by cross-breeding the strong people from each race?

Well, a lot of suffering is caused by degenerate stocks. Imagine how much less suffering there would be on this planet if our immune systems were twice as strong as they are now, and if we could improve the average intelligence of all humans, I'm sure I don't have to point out the benefits of that to you.

Also bear in mind that nobody on this planet is really qualified to decide who is fit or unfit. Here's another quote that explains this:

These six evolutionary races are destined to be blended and exalted by amalgamation with the progeny of the Adamic uplifters. But before these peoples are blended, the inferior and unfit are largely eliminated. The Planetary Prince and the Material Son, with other suitable planetary authorities, pass upon the fitness of the reproducing strains. The difficulty of executing such a radical program on Urantia consists in the absence of competent judges to pass upon the biologic fitness or unfitness of the individuals of your world races. Notwithstanding this obstacle, it seems that you ought to be able to agree upon the biologic disfellowshiping of your more markedly unfit, defective, degenerate, and antisocial stocks.

So although we are not competent to judge the fitness of "reproducing strains", we ought to be able to recognise those who are obviously unfit. For example, those with severe mental handicaps perpetuated by defective genes.

I don't think the gene pool will be improved by traditional eugenic means, I reckon it's more likely that we will improve our knowledge of genetic engineering to such a degree that we will be able to eliminate defective genes without many restrictions on procreation.

[Ben Kenobi]

And I thought this thread was toast...

Caligastia:

So although we are not competent to judge the fitness of "reproducing strains", we ought to be able to recognise those who are obviously unfit. For example, those with severe mental handicaps perpetuated by defective genes.

This is the problem. How can beings who are unqualified to judge the hard cases, are now qualified to judge the so-called 'easy' cases?

Why do the mentally-handicapped suffer from their body?

I don't think the gene pool will be improved by traditional eugenic means, I reckon it's more likely that we will improve our knowledge of genetic engineering to such a degree that we will be able to eliminate defective genes without many restrictions on procreation.

One point. How do we as human beings determine what is best for the human race? The problem with genetic improvement is the division between improvement and enhancement, part of the old proverb, "in the halls of the blind the one-eyed man is king."

IF most can see 20/20, does this mean that those who see 40/20 are defective and should be corrected? If most men are 6', and women 5'6'', are those who are shorter defective?

Times change. Evolution selects those who are most suited for their particular environment. What if the environment changes? By introducing wide-scale genetic engineering, will we not lose some of the genetic variation deemed 'defective' by those of the norm?

Where would you draw the line and why?

[Ribannah]

So-called 'defective genes' are often compensated by other things.

The bigger picture is that eliminating defective genes will be the end of humanity. Adaptations to a changing environment tend to come in the shape of genes that initially are 'defective' until, at some point, from the defect springs a better fit. It's called optimal subset selection.

[tinyp3nis]

So-called 'defective genes' are often compensated by other things.

Where did you get this idea? Care to explain?
If I born blind I may _end up_ hearing better, but I don't get anything extra when I am born/developing. It's just something I learn to do, when I am unable to see, It's not a trait special to me, everyone gets it. Visually impaired person would like to see better still. When you get bad genes it doesn't mean you get some extrasuper special genes just for you. Nature is cruel, it doesn't care for fairness.
You can still do good in life with crappy genes, but the genes are still crappy.

[Ben Kenobi]

If I born blind I may _end up_ hearing better, but I don't get anything extra when I am born/developing. It's just something I learn to do, when I am unable to see, It's not a trait special to me, everyone gets it.

tinyp3nis:

Blind people adapt to their environment in ways different from the rest of people, similar to deaf people as well. Some of the skills learned in compensating for a handicap may be transferred to other areas.

One example would be a deaf person focussing on reading and visual learning simply because they are on an equal footing in this medium.