Are all races equal?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by tinyp3nis

So It was you, well I'm going to get you, you little ****er!!!

damn, I thought I hadn't made a noise!

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I see. The POV you agree with happens to be the only 'correct' default POV. How convenient!

This is my POV in a nutshell:

As of Feb. 8 2003, there is no conclusive universally held scientific/biological evidence to prove that a certain race is intellectually superior to another.

Does this mean there are no differences? maybe and maybe not, there is simply no sufficient evidence to prove 100% either side is right.

As for IQ test, I still think there are certain bias that must be smoothed out and thus I do not consider it a perfect intellectual test. These bias are of course cultural ones. Even in culturally-controlled environments there are factors which escape the experiment-makers, in this case is upbrigning which has a MAJOR effect on people. Take a black kid and a white kid, same school, same neighborhood, yet each familiy will have a distinct way of raising their kids and these differences will probably show.

If they ever make an experiment using different-race kids from the same household, same parents, same school, same region, etc. THEN I'll buy it.

[Az]

If they ever make an experiment using different-race kids from the same household, same parents, same school, same region, etc. THEN I'll buy it.

that wouldn't be scientific.

[Master Zen]

true,

but at least it'll give the empirics a little more credibility

[Az]

no.

It will give racists more credibility.

If you don't want to be a nitpick about it, fine. But then please stop calling "social science" science.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Azazel

for me racism is the belief that a certain ethnic heritage produces inherent superiorities/inferiorities.

I'm not offended to be called a racist if that is all you mean by it, but still, I tend to think you probably attach more meaning than that to it. You are aware that to be called a 'racist' is generally considered a negative thing. Are you the exception to the rule?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Master Zen


This is my POV in a nutshell:

As of Feb. 8 2003, there is no conclusive universally held scientific/biological evidence to prove that a certain race is intellectually superior to another.

Does this mean there are no differences? maybe and maybe not, there is simply no sufficient evidence to prove 100% either side is right.

So you don't believe anything unless there is a unanimous consensus? Or do you only apply this standard to racial matters?

As for IQ test, I still think there are certain bias that must be smoothed out and thus I do not consider it a perfect intellectual test. These bias are of course cultural ones. Even in culturally-controlled environments there are factors which escape the experiment-makers, in this case is upbrigning which has a MAJOR effect on people. Take a black kid and a white kid, same school, same neighborhood, yet each familiy will have a distinct way of raising their kids and these differences will probably show.

As I explained to Molly, cultural bias does not account for the disparity between black and white IQs because in tests that were intentionally created with cultural bias, the disparity was less than when non-culturally biased tests were used.

If they ever make an experiment using different-race kids from the same household, same parents, same school, same region, etc. THEN I'll buy it.

They have, and if I really thought it would change your mind, I would find the results for you. If there is not a 100% unanimous consensus then it's not good enough for you.

[Az]

It's irrelevant to the discussion, but let me say you this:

In the context of the moral code in which I believe, It's an immoral thing. I am willing to debate and explain you the 'why', though.

So... say, what do you think are the inherent traits of the different races?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Azazel
It's irrelevant to the discussion, but let me say you this:

In the context of the moral code in which I believe, It's an immoral thing. I am willing to debate and explain you the 'why', though.

Go ahead, and keep in mind that someone with 'racist' beliefs does not necessarily think this way in order to feel superior, or because they hate people who are different.

So... say, what do you think are the inherent traits of the different races?

I can't say for sure in most areas, but I definitely think there are intelligence differences.

[Az]

Go ahead, and keep in mind that someone with 'racist' beliefs does not necessarily think this way in order to feel superior, or because they hate people who are different.

I understand that you are not hateful, at least it seems so. Still, there are many wrongs.

I can't say for sure in most areas, but I definitely think there are intelligence differences.

please, tell me more.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Azazel

I understand that you are not hateful, at least it seems so. Still, there are many wrongs.

You think it is wrong for me to believe what I do. Why?

please, tell me more.

Sure:

"Members of all racial-ethnic groups can be found at every IQ level. The BELL CURVES of different groups overlap considerably, but groups often differ in where their members tend to cluster along the IQ line. The BELL CURVES for some groups (Jews and East Asians) are centered somewhat higher than for whites in general. Other groups (blacks and Hispanics) are centered somewhat lower than non-Hispanic whites.
The BELL CURVE for whites is centered roughly around IQ 100; the BELL CURVE for American blacks roughly around 85; and those for different subgroups of Hispanics roughly midway between those for whites and blacks. The evidence is less definitive for exactly where above IQ 100 the BELL CURVES for Jews and Asians are centered."

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html

[Ramo]

The Bell Curve is one of the most deceptive and intellectually bankrupt books I've read. Their statistical techniques are flawed in the extreme. What they assert simply isn't accurate.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Ramo
The Bell Curve is one of the most deceptive and intellectually bankrupt books I've read. Their statistical techniques are flawed in the extreme. What they assert simply isn't accurate.

That's not where I took the quote from. Keep in mind that a Bell Curve is not just the title of a book.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Caligastia

Sure:

"Members of all racial-ethnic groups can be found at every IQ level. The BELL CURVES of different groups overlap considerably, but groups often differ in where their members tend to cluster along the IQ line. The BELL CURVES for some groups (Jews and East Asians) are centered somewhat higher than for whites in general. Other groups (blacks and Hispanics) are centered somewhat lower than non-Hispanic whites.
The BELL CURVE for whites is centered roughly around IQ 100; the BELL CURVE for American blacks roughly around 85; and those for different subgroups of Hispanics roughly midway between those for whites and blacks. The evidence is less definitive for exactly where above IQ 100 the BELL CURVES for Jews and Asians are centered."

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html

Is your definition of "superiority" by intelligence?

I certainky think one can be "superior" over another by genetic comparison. Me compared to a person with down syndrome for example, its easy to determine typically I would be considered "superior".

-But does that mean I am always at advantage over down sydrome patients no matter what kind of enviorrnment I am given?

-And can you generalize the population of people with so much genetic pool with so much variety to conclude that a group is superior over another?

-And can you determine the difference between genetics VS environment factors when you are making an observation that "typically X race is inferior over Y race"?

-And is defintion of superior absolute at all?

In the end it's just too much uncertainty for me to say "yes, X is superior over Y". I wouldnt deny 100% that one race can be superior over another, but thats like me saying I wont deny the fact that little tooth fairies exist and they are just to shy to come by themselves so they hire mom and dad to do the job.

And in the end, even if someone comes up to me and persuades me to beleive that X is superior over Y, unless all Xs and Ys are the same, it really doesnt help you to be X, as long as there is range of difference. For example, if you are green and green intellectual range is 100 - 200 and you are the 101, it doesnt help you to be any better than the white people whos intellectual range is lets say, 60 - 120.

[Az]

Petition. nice. It, however, does not speak at all about the cultural background of education, developement of early learning skills etc.