Churchill war criminal, says German historian

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Drogue
Well, that's the way you think it is. We are still entitled to disagree. Germany didn't start area bombing either. Even in Britain we're taught that we started it, even though it was 'justified'.

I wasn't taught that. I seem to have been taught an alternate history.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by UberKruX
for instance, the Americans went out of their way to give veitnamese children shots to protect from some diseases, and the veitnamese chopped off their arms and went on some propaganda campagin that america was trying to kill them.

I head precisely that story related by colonol Kurtz (Marlon Brando) in the movie 'Apocalyse Now' by Francis Ford Coppola.

Whether it is fact or fiction I am unsure...

[Jaakko]

Harboring vindictiveness for events 60 years past is a fun way to pass the time it seems.
I got to say, to me the most important thing is to remember the lessons learned, both the fact that area bombing of cities doesn't work, and that starting a genocidal campaign is rightly going to get you a lot of motivated enemies.

But if ya feel like identifying with butchers on either side, go ahead.

[Buck Birdseed]

Surely area bombing goes back considerably futher than the second world war, or even the airplane era. Or does massive bobmbardment of civilians from Gunships not count? That goes back to the early-to-mid 19th century at the very least, used extensively in during "wars" in African colonies.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Drogue
Well, that's the way you think it is. We are still entitled to disagree. Germany didn't start area bombing either. Even in Britain we're taught that we started it, even though it was 'justified'.

Germany bombed Posnan and Warsaw within the first few weeks of the war. Britain hadn't even gotten its air force into position by that time.

Has there ever been a war in which once one side has committed atrocities the other hasn't responded in kind? Remember how the Germans started chemical warfare during WWI? At least the allies didn't attempt a "final solution" to the German problem. It should also be pointed out that the Germans eventually deliberately farmed out their war materials production to residential areas in an attempt to protect them from Allied bombing. Using civilians as a shield is considered a war crime.

In the 1930s military theorists had already predicted the use of strategic bombing of cities as a means of winning wars. Even though diplomats at the time were busy trying to limit other aspects of warfare no one seemed to object enough to this idea to convene an international summit.

[HazieDaVampire]

"WELL YOU STARTED IT!"
"NO WE DIDN'T!"
"YES YOU DID, YOU INVADED POLAND!"

Anyways, they can all **** off, after the war we let some of our militery personal stay in Germany and rebuild the car industry!
BMW, and the PeoplesCar wouldn't be there, well, they would, but they'd probubly be in league with Second hand car dealers!

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
Surely area bombing goes back considerably futher than the second world war, or even the airplane era. Or does massive bobmbardment of civilians from Gunships not count? That goes back to the early-to-mid 19th century at the very least, used extensively in during "wars" in African colonies.

i suppose it'd be slightly easier to blame area bombings via bombardment on miscalculations than planes flying overhead looking down at the cultural center of germany

still sickening though, but war is war. i see "war crimes" and "rules of war" as oxymorons. "crimes against humanity" though are quite different. which category does dresden fall into? that's a tough one for me, as i do not know enough about the particulars to decide.

please correct me and fill me in as you see fit:

dresden was a cultural center for germany that the alled forces fire-bombed to cinders. was there any industry there? rumors of any industry? any reason other than terrorism to bomb it?

thanks in advance.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by UberKruX


any reason other than terrorism to bomb it?

thanks in advance.

Stalin requested it.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by UberKruX
dresden was a cultural center for germany that the alled forces fire-bombed to cinders. was there any industry there? rumors of any industry? any reason other than terrorism to bomb it?

I don't know about the reasoning, but the living hell was bombed out of the historical core of the city and residental areas, while the barracks in the north of the city, the airport and the plane factory got only a few occasional (probably misleaded) bombs, that did no significant damage. All in all, it looks like pure terror, nothing else.

[David Floyd]

I still haven't heard an adequate answer to the question of "Why is it OK for us to murder people just because our enemy does it?"

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by David Floyd
I still haven't heard an adequate answer to the question of "Why is it OK for us to murder people just because our enemy does it?"

Especially when it fails to further war aims in any meaningful degree.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by UberKruX


dresden was a cultural center for germany that the alled forces fire-bombed to cinders. was there any industry there? rumors of any industry? any reason other than terrorism to bomb it?

Like I said up above, by 1944 and 1945 the Germans had moved a lot of parts manufacturing and assembly to small shops in residential areas. IIRC Dresden was supposed to be involved in the manufacture of airplane parts.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Especially when it fails to further war aims in any meaningful degree.

One truly major misapprehension of the strategic bombing campaign was the notion that Germany's electric power generation grid was too spread out to be significantly damaged. We know now that hitting even a small part of a power grid can so overload the rest that it all comes down. If the allies had allocated even a fraction of their strategic bombing to power plants they could have brought German production to a stand still.

[Imran Siddiqui]

it's stupid to take the moral high ground in a war. the side that is willing to do whatever it takes to win, no matter how horrific, is most likely going to win. when you take the high road, you just fall down further.

Exactly! You hit it on the nail Uber.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Like I said up above, by 1944 and 1945 the Germans had moved a lot of parts manufacturing and assembly to small shops in residential areas. IIRC Dresden was supposed to be involved in the manufacture of airplane parts.

I've never seen anything supporting this. Dresden was not involved with any manufacturing, nor did we have any intelligence to make us think it was. It was bombed solely because it was one of the few cities we had yet to bomb.