Churchill war criminal, says German historian

[Wernazuma III]

And best of all: Bomb the with fugitives overcrowded in two waves: First only a bit, then wait until the ambulances and firemen rush in and then finish them.

[MRT144]

i find nothing wrogn with bombing a populace that stood idly by while jews gypsies communists and catholics were rounded up and sent to concetration camps.

[HazieDaVampire]

Anyways, no one on the Germans side was put on trial for the bombing of london.

and Chriss 62, you missed out Liverpool, Sunderland, Newcastle.

My Great Aunt got stuck under a table when her house got hit, they had to cut off the legs to get her out!
The legs of the table, not my aunt!

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by MRT144
i find nothing wrogn with bombing a populace that stood idly by while jews gypsies communists and catholics were rounded up and sent to concetration camps.

I see no justification in that argument for two reasons that spring to mind. 1) If they had not been idle, they would be joining them in the camp - so you cannot hold them accountable. 2) Murder (through bombing) is a worse crime than not preventing murder (through inaction) - the moral angle is laughable.

[MRT144]

1)so being morally right and dead is worse than being morally wrong and alive? god forbid some of them show a little backbone...

2)it wasnt murder that the germans allowed, it was genocide.it was advocated by the goverment and blazed into the conciousness of the german populace. i find the murder of people who supported and assisted in the genocide acceptable.

[Dauphin]

1)so being morally right and dead is worse than being morally wrong and alive?

Thats a personal decision, but choosing the latter is no reason to murder them.

i find the murder of people who supported and assisted in the genocide acceptable

What about the thousands of Dresden residents who were killed that silently opposed the genocide?

[MRT144]

they should have left the country...like thousands of people did when the nazis came to power.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by MRT144
they should have left the country...like thousands of people did when the nazis came to power.

And where should they go with most of europe under control of Nazi-Germany?

And of course with the GESTAPO (Geheime Staatspolizei, a kind of SecretService against dissidents within Germany) controlling everything and everyone within Germany?

[Buck Birdseed]

You can't "silently oppose" anything. Every silent member of society in a dictatorship is part of the collective structure of oppression, you're not "just following orders" but are an integral part of any social machine. As a citizen, you have the duty to actively pursue freedom, otherwise you're implicitly supporting the system. Thoreau can kiss my ass.

OTOH, I don't think anyone deserves to be bombed for anything, so I'm really agreeing with you, I suppose.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
It should also be pointed out that the Germans eventually deliberately farmed out their war materials production to residential areas in an attempt to protect them from Allied bombing. Using civilians as a shield is considered a war crime.

I have never heard that the Germans had a deliberate plan to 'farm out' productive capacity to civilian areas in order to shield manfucaturing from area bombing. I would need a source on that.

I was under the impression that the Germans experimented with the building underground factories. Especially in the area of producing socalled retalliatory weapons such as the V1 cruise-missile.

Also - another thing pointed out by the economist John Kenneth Galbraith is that the area-bombing of workers quarters - and it is significant that it was workers quarters- actually helped the German war machine in the last spasms of mobilization during 44-45.
People who had been not particularily loyal to the regime now found that their livelihood was destroyed. this he claims actually meant that the German army and the Volksturm militias were the only institution were homeless and jobless men could be fed and clothed.

So I am thinking this. Remember the German Economy did not reach full mobilization until 44-45. Until then it been an army characterized by professionalism and technological superiority. Far from the bombardment being an act of insane revenge there was 1) political calculation behind it. Socializing the German workers into army life and impress them with further authoritarianism 2) In order to secure against a communist countercoup in future occupied territories in Germany. 3) The bloated German workers army was mostly employed in the east against the Red Army in a morbid numbers game. Thus the threat of the Red Army completely overrunning the European market could be averted.

Futher points
1) The allies demanded unconditional surrender. Why?
2) The allies were fully aware of the German concentration camps, yet these were not bombed, neither were the railroads leading to them. Why?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Like I said up above, by 1944 and 1945 the Germans had moved a lot of parts manufacturing and assembly to small shops in residential areas. IIRC Dresden was supposed to be involved in the manufacture of airplane parts.

The plane factory is the only place, where these supposed parts could be built, unless you call the production of screws for the instrument panel "manufacturing airplane parts" too, but in the latter case you could have level bombed the whole Germany. The factory is located many kilometers north in the outskirts of the city, far away of any residental area. And it was left completely intact. So were the barracks and the airport itself. I was in the (now former) plane factory and in the barracks (later used by the Russians, now by the Saxon government). All historic, pre-war buildings. How does this fit in your history? Oh, I forgot your issue with blind pilots, who are unable to tell a tractor from a tank and a wedding from a military formation.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by MRT144
1)so being morally right and dead is worse than being morally wrong and alive? god forbid some of them show a little backbone...

If you had a family and were under the threat that showing such "backbone" would land you and them in a concentration camp, or get you shot on the spot, I'd like to see how much "backbone" you'd really show. It's easy in hindsight to have such moral "courage."

2)it wasnt murder that the germans allowed, it was genocide.it was advocated by the goverment and blazed into the conciousness of the german populace. i find the murder of people who supported and assisted in the genocide acceptable.

Many Germans did not approve of the Nazis, many didn't know what was really happening in the Holocaust. Many of those bombed in Dresden were children. These people did nothing to assist in the genocide except live in Germany. You say they should have left the country. Is it so easy for peasants to up and leave Europe when it is overrun by the Nazis? Flee where?

And the city was packed with 250,000+ refugees fleeing the Soviet advance, hoping to end up under American and British control so they wouldn't face the brutality of the Russians. Their mistake, I suppose you'd say.

[Boris Godunov]

Oh, and, under your logic MRT144, the U.S. would have been morally justified in wiping every Russian off the face of the earth. After all, they stood idly by while Stalin mass-murdered millions. Those bastards!

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


The plane factory is the only place, where these supposed parts could be built, unless you call the production of screws for the instrument panel "manufacturing airplane parts" too, but in the latter case you could have level bombed the whole Germany. The factory is located many kilometers north in the outskirts of the city, far away of any residental area. And it was left completely intact. So were the barracks and the airport itself. I was in the (now former) plane factory and in the barracks (later used by the Russians, now by the Saxon government). All historic, pre-war buildings. How does this fit in your history? Oh, I forgot your issue with blind pilots, who are unable to tell a tractor from a tank and a wedding from a military formation.

You can preassemble parts like fuel injectors, carbuerators and etc. As far as "blind pilots" let's see how much you can see on the ground at 30,000 feet.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by HazieDaVampire
Anyways, no one on the Germans side was put on trial for the bombing of london.

and Chriss 62, you missed out Liverpool, Sunderland, Newcastle.

My Great Aunt got stuck under a table when her house got hit, they had to cut off the legs to get her out!
The legs of the table, not my aunt!

My mother was a little girl in Manchester during the Blitz, although not heavily bombed, she remember those years quite vididly, as did the entire WWII generation.

Boris is correct about Dresden, and the equally troubling and pointless attack on Nuremberg is even worse, the war was over (about a week or so left), the place had nothing EXCEPT the memory of Nazi rallies in the 30s, so bombed it was.

As far as I know, the only aviator executed for war crimes at Nurmemberg was a Lutfwaffe officer for the Rotterdam attack.

The real point was that WWII was a total war in every way, the axis were defaeted completely and have never again been a threat to anyone since that time.
People should bear that in mind before condeming the methods used by the allies to win it I think.
Since that time, wars have been fought with boundries and rules, and have resolved nothing.
A 50 year standoff in Korea, endless arab-israeli wars, a 22 year war in Southeast asia, and many others.
Yes, WWII was unpleasant, but it was decisive and ended after 6 years, and the nations that started it are now peaceful and prosperous.

So which method is better?