What is more important than the Nation?

[Ari Rahikkala]

Grah, vBulletin doesn't have much love for apostrophes in URLs... Godwin's Law

[chequita guevara]

Everything's more important than the nation. A nation is simply an arbitrary lasso thrown around a group of people. They are invented realities, they do not describe real things. Nations are things of the past. One day they will all be abolished.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Family, friends, yourself, and more.

The nation is just fiction created trough human evolution "or stupidity" in the struggle for power.

Well nation, it is more a state, has meaning today, and preserving it is important as usually the one you are preserving it against would come and abuse you.

SO traitor? WHat did they do? IS he a murderer or what? There should be some real crime attached to traitors (at least some gov. secrets given away)... so one can say that you have endangered the state, but the state should (of course it doesn't) mean people living in it. And therefore you are guilty.

Yes it is a stupid notion, but it makes sense when a group of people attacks you (another nation). You can indentify more easily who do you call to help you defend. It has a cause in very basic human nature... however normal life and all associated with it is more important than the nation.

[MosesPresley]

Thanks Ari Rahikkala.

[Kingof the Apes]

"All for one, and one for all."

-The Three Musketeers

[Ben Kenobi]

I agree with slowwhand, but as for the primacy of the nation over the individual-

You can't have a nation without the people. The nation is the people. I seem to remember Gandhi saying something like that about India where the real India is not found in the conference room with delegates, but is found in the people themselves. You can never speak for the entire nation, since they are people you will never meet or see.

[statusperfect]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Everything's more important than the nation. A nation is simply an arbitrary lasso thrown around a group of people. They are invented realities, they do not describe real things. Nations are things of the past. One day they will all be abolished.

That's post modern bull****

A healthy modern democratic nation is good for the fighting spirit and identity of the people living in it.

[Kropotkin]

If you're truely interested in the issue I recommend "Nations and Nationalism since 1780" by Eric Hobsbawm. He hardly sees it the same way as you do but that alone is not a good enough reason not to read it. It's a standard book on the issue.

[Bereta_Eder]

I recommend this book also

[MosesPresley]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Everything's more important than the nation. A nation is simply an arbitrary lasso thrown around a group of people. They are invented realities, they do not describe real things. Nations are things of the past. One day they will all be abolished.

I agree che, but what will they be replaced by: A Family of Man, the United Planet, any ideas on what that might look like? The Nation appears to our strongest social construct right now, but it leads to endless wars, so logically, I assume there must be an alternative.

[Mercator]

I'm with lightblue (except for the part about supporting Holland in football ). Coincidentally, I'm a Belgian living in Holland.

Except for supporting my country in sports there's very little I feel for "my nation".

And as OFITG said, treason is not a crime (sure, it may suck for the nation involved... tough luck).

[MosesPresley]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
If you're truely interested in the issue I recommend "Nations and Nationalism since 1780" by Eric Hobsbawm. He hardly sees it the same way as you do but that alone is not a good enough reason not to read it. It's a standard book on the issue.

I'll take a look. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for agreement, but a good dialogue and who knows, there are a lot of smart people here, maybe a solution.

statusperfect: "A healthy modern democratic nation is good for the fighting spirit and identity of the people living in it."

Democracy is nice, but the tyranny of the mob overpowers the needs of the minority or the individual.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by statusperfect
That's post modern bull****

Hardly. Post-modernism would see the nation as being as valid as any other group, since they would all be arbitrarily created groups, even familes, ethnicities, etc. On the other hand, those who've studied nationalism and the concept of nation intensely, such as I have, know that the concept of nation is only a little more than 200 years old, that nations are arbitrarily created (ask the Finns for example) and have little to do with geography (the Jews) or language (the Swiss). In simple words, nations are simply groups of people that call themselves a nation and that others agree they are a nation.

[Ben Kenobi]

"The Nation appears to our strongest social construct right now."
-Moses Presley


What about a family? Doesn't a family count as a social construct, or is it something else?

[statusperfect]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Hardly. Post-modernism would see the nation as being as valid as any other group, since they would all be arbitrarily created groups, even familes, ethnicities, etc. On the other hand, those who've studied nationalism and the concept of nation intensely, such as I have, know that the concept of nation is only a little more than 200 years old, that nations are arbitrarily created (ask the Finns for example) and have little to do with geography (the Jews) or language (the Swiss). In simple words, nations are simply groups of people that call themselves a nation and that others agree they are a nation.

My point is that they benefit from calling themselves a nation. Don't `they?