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Originally posted by MosesPresley
Democracy is nice, but the tyranny of the mob overpowers the needs of the minority or the individual.
Democracy is nice, but the tyranny of the mob overpowers the needs of the minority or the individual.
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There is no tyranny of the mob in a healthy democracy. -
Nations and Nationalism, by Ernst Gellner, is probably the best book on nationalism there is, followed very closely by Benedict Anderson's, Imagined Communities. I also highly recommend Hobsbawm, a fellow Marxist.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...Comment
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The family certainly does count as a social construct. What's your point?Originally posted by obiwan18
"The Nation appears to our strongest social construct right now."
-Moses Presley
What about a family? Doesn't a family count as a social construct, or is it something else?"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
—Orson Welles as Harry LimeComment
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In my view, "Nations" are more trouble than they're worth, they're up there with "Religions" and "Mass Media". If you don't have artificial constructs (I totally agree with Che on this) that link groups of people together then "the rule of the mob" is much lessened and as such wars and other kind of large scale conflict are unlikely.
I suppose in a way this viewpoint would fall under the heading "Anarchist" but I think that most people that call themselves anarchists wouldn't know the responsibilities this would bring. No longer can you mindlessly follow some moron who happens to have a load of cash, and maybe a modicum of charisma, but rather you'd have to make decisions for yourself, and for the good of the community. I realise that this completely irrealistic due to the fact that the sheep mentality has been ingrained in us for centuries, and that most people would be unable to make serious decisions for themselves.
[phew: feeling a bit political today, sorry for that...]Comment
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Was that your point? I didn't see any argument advancing that theory.Originally posted by statusperfect
My point is that they benefit from calling themselves a nation. Don't `they?
And no, I do not agree that anyone necessarily benefits from being part of a nation-group, especially if your nation doesn't control the state. For example, it pretty much sucked to be Jewish in much of Europe during the 19th Century. They were all defined as outside the nation in France, Germany, Poland and Russia, etc. It sucks to be Serbian in Kosovo, or Euskadi in Spain, Irish in Northern Ireland.
Nor do I agree that being a member of the national majority in a nation-state necessarily makes you better off. Are the French people better off for being part of the French nation? Was it a boon to be sent off to defend the nation in 1914? The nation is simply woll pulled over your eyes, a creation of the ruling elite to make you imagine you have more in common with the rich guy on the top who may speak a similar language as you than some poor schmuck who lives across the border who has the same life as you but speaks German.
The workers of the world have no nation but the world.
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Me thinks you are confusing the concept of nation with that of the state. Nation does not equal state, though nations may have states.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...Comment
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Yupp. I am. In swedish nation=state. I agree with you.Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Me thinks you are confusing the concept of nation with that of the state. Nation does not equal state, though nations may have states.Comment
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"Family is more important than Nation. My family are the only ones who give a **** whether or not I eat. The problem here is that the Nation doesn't really respect the sanctity of the home any more."
"The Nation appears to our strongest social construct right now."
MosesPresley, I was somewhat confused by these statements interposed together. Are you trying to say that the Nation is a stronger social institution than the family?
Generally, things that are most important are also the strongest, though this is not always true. Is this the case here?
While the nation is a strong social construct, I would argue that family is both stronger and more important.Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
"Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!Comment
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Good point.Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The nation is simply wool pulled over your eyes, a creation of the ruling elite to make you imagine you have more in common with the rich guy on the top who may speak a similar language as you than some poor schmuck who lives across the border who has the same life as you but speaks German.
I admit you have me there. What is the difference between the State and the Nation? The pundits always speak of the nation state.Me thinks you are confusing the concept of nation with that of the state. Nation does not equal state, though nations may have states."In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
—Orson Welles as Harry LimeComment
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"The Nation appears to our strongest social construct right now."Originally posted by obiwan18
"Family is more important than Nation. My family are the only ones who give a **** whether or not I eat. The problem here is that the Nation doesn't really respect the sanctity of the home any more."
"The Nation appears to our strongest social construct right now."
MosesPresley, I was somewhat confused by these statements interposed together. Are you trying to say that the Nation is a stronger social institution than the family?
Generally, things that are most important are also the strongest, though this is not always true. Is this the case here?
While the nation is a strong social construct, I would argue that family is both stronger and more important.
I think that family is often at odds with the nation, especially now, but for the most part the nation is in place to serve the needs of the family. They are inter-dependent. The family is a powerful social construct and is intrinsic to a healthy society. There are some problems with this, one is the dynasty effect. Families accrue wealth and power and generally pass this wealth and power to the descendants. Eventually if the ambition is there, these families rise to rule the nation or at the very least have considerable influence in their communities.
In keeping with the topic. Individual vs. Nation, I would have to say that although I depend on my nation and my family, the family also often goes against the needs of the individual. I depend on my family for all sorts of the support and I depend on the nation to provide the infrastructure, social services, and sense of community to ensure such support can be provided. The needs of the family come before the needs of the individual, but the individual has a lot more power in the family. They can somewhat easily leave their family. Leaving your nation permanently is a much more complicated affair."In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
—Orson Welles as Harry LimeComment
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A state is used to refer to a political body. States, Nation-States, City-States, "the State".....It is common for someone to use "state" to replace nation eg "The State of Israel". Thats why America is a "union" of "states" hence the United States of America.
I think.Comment
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A state is a political organization with the sole legitimate right to use force within a given territory. A nation is a group of people who believe they have a connection, based on a belief that they share a common historical experience, often coinciding with language or religion.
Israel is a state, Jews are a nation. The United States of America is a state, America is a nation. Germany is a state and a nation. The USSR was a multi-national state. The Kurds are a stateless nation. The Arabs a nation with many states.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...Comment
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Thanks.Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A state is a political organization with the sole legitimate right to use force within a given territory. A nation is a group of people who believe they have a connection, based on a belief that they share a common historical experience, often coinciding with language or religion.
Israel is a state, Jews are a nation. The United States of America is a state, America is a nation. Germany is a state and a nation. The USSR was a multi-national state. The Kurds are a stateless nation. The Arabs a nation with many states.
"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
—Orson Welles as Harry LimeComment
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Originally posted by statusperfect
A healthy modern democratic nation is good for the fighting spirit and identity of the people living in it.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ BraindeadComment
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"Brilliance is typically the act of an individual, but incredible stupidity can usually be traced to an organization."
-- Jon Bentley
Substitute nation for organization."In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
—Orson Welles as Harry LimeComment
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Things more important than the nation:
1) Family
2) Friends
3) Other loved ones
4) Justice
5) The Truth (scientific and/or spiritual)
6) Human Rights
I'm in the lightblue category. I was born in England, lived in America, went to highschool in Canada, and have since moved back to England. Do I feel any overriding loyalty to a state or nation? Err...no. My loyalty lies to the people, no matter where they are, who I love.Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard DawkinsComment
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