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What is more important than the Nation?

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  • #1

    What is more important than the Nation?

    This is an unfinished theme that I have been exploring recently. Any thoughts or criticisms are welcome as I would like to pursue this idea further. Please remember this is in the raw.

    What is more important than the Nation?

    Why is the Nation more important than the individual? What is greater than Nation? Is the sanctity of the Nation supreme?

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. When is this not true? The individual is of prime importance. Would you like to be the symbolic sacrifice for the survivors?

    Our myths are dominated by the heroic individual. He is heroic for two reasons, because he is born to win or he is born to die. There can be no middle ground for the hero. The Nation is supreme, but the mythical hero sustains its counterfeit soul. I say counterfeit, because the Nation squashes its individuals. It is precisely because of this reason that it is impossible to have heroes in a Nation. A Nation by definition has no individuals. It is a colony beast. It is a multi-celluar creature in which the individual cells have gained consciousness.
    "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
    —Orson Welles as Harry Lime
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  • #2
    "On this ship you'll refer to me as idiot, not you captain!"
    - Lone Star

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    • #3
      @Jakko!

      I would say the individual is more important than the state, but the state is also important. I feel that states can organize individuals into a more efficient and more harmonious union, and that a greater good can come from effectively organized nations working domestically and abroad to better the lives of everyone.
      "Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
      You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

      "I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui

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      • #4
        In its current state, the Nation generates a certain number of elite individuals who act on the behalf or for the entertainment of the masses or the hoarde depending on your view. These individuals are more equal than others, to steal a line from Orwell.
        "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
        —Orson Welles as Harry Lime

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        • #5
          only read the title but
          oh pretty much all that truely matter in this life are worth more than the "nation"

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          • #6
            I am one of those people who couldn't care less about "the Nation". I'd consider myself European but that's about it, in football I'll support Holland and that's as far as it goes.

            I am more important to myself than any nation, the people I care about are more important than any nation. And Jaakko has a point, this does have a tinge of fascist rhetoric about it.

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            • #7
              What is more important than the Nation?

              The species. Duh.

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              • #8
                God and family, for me.

                I want to start a thread about heroes though, because I've had a revelation.
                Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                • #9
                  http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html

                  (p.s. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ )
                  This is Shireroth, and Giant Squid will brutally murder me if I ever remove this link from my signature | In the end it won't be love that saves us, it will be mathematics | So many people have this concept of God the Avenger. I see God as the ultimate sense of humor -- SlowwHand

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                  • #10
                    Thanks SlowHand, I was waiting for someone to bring up God and family. Family is more important than Nation. My family are the only ones who give a **** whether or not I eat. The problem here is that the Nation doesn't really respect the sanctity of the home any more. The Bill of Rrights was our guard against tyranny, but the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism has almost completely eroded the Bill of Rights. Now with the Rico Act and the Patriot Act, the government can seize your property without the benefit of a court trial, lock you away without legal representation among other things.

                    Sandman: The species? Glib, but interesting, could you expound a little more on that please? We are certainly not a United Planet or anything.

                    lightblue: You say you couldn't care less about the Nation. That is a fairly cavalier statement. Are you saying that you don't care when someone betrays their Nation's interests. Where do you stand on treason? A traitor in one Nation is a hero in another. Same question for you paiktis. I am not saying you are wrong, but this isn't a simplistic issue.

                    Orange: I agree with you.
                    "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
                    —Orson Welles as Harry Lime

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                    • #11
                      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                      "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                      He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                      • #12
                        Answer to topic: Sex, drugs and rock n' roll.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ari Rahikkala
                          http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html

                          (p.s. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ )
                          Are you saying my thread was DOA?

                          The first link didn't work for me.
                          "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
                          —Orson Welles as Harry Lime

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MosesPresley

                            lightblue: You say you couldn't care less about the Nation. That is a fairly cavalier statement. Are you saying that you don't care when someone betrays their Nation's interests. Where do you stand on treason? A traitor in one Nation is a hero in another. Same question for you paiktis. I am not saying you are wrong, but this isn't a simplistic issue.
                            Hmm, let me explain where I come from. I carry a Dutch passport, I've grown up in Luxembourg and have lived in the UK for the past 6 years. I don't have roots, and would not call any particular place home over the other. As such I'd say I do not have a Nation in the meaning you assign to it.

                            In general I assign respect for human rights a far greater importance, so if those would be endangered by the actions of whatever government of whatever nation I would find myself in, then acting against this government would not be an act of treason on my part, but rather a justified fight.

                            The only people that can commit treason in my view are those that endanger the freedom of other people, and as such are more likely to be politicians rather than someone sending back research data to China or something.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by statusperfect
                              Answer to topic: Sex, drugs and rock n' roll.
                              They tried that here in 60's. :making whoopee smiley:

                              "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
                              —Orson Welles as Harry Lime

                              Comment

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