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Originally posted by monkspider
Wrongo, you are a rightist, therefore by definition your beliefs are illogical.
Wrongo, you are a rightist, therefore by definition your beliefs are illogical.
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Wow, what a witty reply! This probably qualifies as sig material.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence) -
Wrongo, your illogical reply qualifies as sig material. You need to stop pushing your ridiculous rightist propoganda and get behind the fact that everyone loves Chavez.http://monkspider.blogspot.com/Comment
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Good bait... but not good enough. You are so full of crap. Everybody hates Chavez. And you a little yanqui, don't know anything about what is happening in Latin America. What is needed is strong rule by the fist, capitalist minded reforms and transparency.Originally posted by monkspider
Wrongo, your illogical reply qualifies as sig material. You need to stop pushing your ridiculous rightist propoganda and get behind the fact that everyone loves Chavez.For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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i can see this debate going far
gegap: i agree with you in principal, but the situation is venezuela could turn very ugly if something isn't done to sort it out soon, and the best way would be an early election."The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de BottonComment
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Classic!Originally posted by Fez
What is needed is strong rule by the fist...and transparency."The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
"you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
"I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - DissidentComment
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You actually are in agreement with me about early elections?Originally posted by C0ckney
i can see this debate going far
gegap: i agree with you in principal, but the situation is venezuela could turn very ugly if something isn't done to sort it out soon, and the best way would be an early election.
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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Fez: For the love of whatever you care about, try and stop making such a fool of yourself so often. Stop hitting your head against brick walls! (and vice versa)
Back to Venezuela....
While it's strikingly clear that the fiercest supporters of Chavez are predominantly from the low classes, and that the opposition has the rich as its visible head, from the looks of things the middle classes are very diverse in their opinions.
It seems that the division in Venezuela is much closer to 40% vs 60 % (either way), than either a total support or a total opposition against Chavez. That makes the crisis all the more unpredictable.
(And all the more funny all the "out-of-range"
pro/anti-Chavez statements one reads in these forums.
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While I don't sympathize with Chavez, I don't hold any special hatred towards him. But I believe he has been highly unable to take care of the situation. He won't fall, but living in a permanent state of tension will make the rest of his term utterly impaired anyway.
Gepap:
Constitutions are often changed in Latin America, as you know Chavez himself changed his own. If the opposition was rational and patient, they'd push for the equivalent of a new constitution or a constitutional amendment.
The opposition certainly will not make the situation better, that's why Chavez should stay in power until his legal exit, but I doubt the circumstances will allow him to make any lasting changes, once he's out.
Constitutionalism....such a thing will probably never fully develop in most of Latin America. There is too much corruption, supported by colonial exploitation structures that the Spanish so eagerly installed, and that today remain in place.
PS: Chavez is not a dictator, just a populist. Which isn't necessarily a bad/good thing....Depends.DULCE BELLUM INEXPERTISComment
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A few things:
Actually no. It is because of the terrible corruption in the governments, and the governments usual bypassing of the constitution that is so readily apparent in Latin America.
How does thin disprove the fact that NOT following the constitution is the probem? All you say is that usually the offender has been the government. I would agree with that. But if bypassing the constitution is a problem, then it would be equaly as bad for the opostition of the government to do it?
No... the solution to Latin America's political instability is a complete economic turn around.
And how does a politically unstable state do so? Lets take your wonderboy, Pinochet. The first thing he had to do to gain foreign investment and local investment was to create a politically stable situation. He did so dictatorially. Now, you and the opposition claim that the problem is Chavez is being dictatorial: well, if being dictatorial is the problem, then the solution must be democratic, no? But for it to be trully democratic, it must be constitutional, since democracy can't work without solid constitutionalism. By demanding uncosntitutional actions, you are being anti-demoicratic, without any plans to create political stability.
Prosperity in Latin America come aftre Political stability, not before. Anything that damages political stability hurts Latin American economic prospects. THe opposition is doing far more harm than good to Venezuela.If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard ShawComment
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in the need for an election, yes, in the need for a right wing military junta (shockingly enough), no."The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de BottonComment
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Ok, Gepap I do see your point with political stability. It is needed for investment. But...
Then they should leave the government to continue committing violations of the consititution and not do anything about it? The Chavez government didn't even listen to the courts anymore.But if bypassing the constitution is a problem, then it would be equaly as bad for the opostition of the government to do it?For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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Juntas?
DULCE BELLUM INEXPERTISComment
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Stalinist? Well, Fez you are a Friedmanist!:
Fez vs. all:
Fez - Tonto.
All - No tonto tú.
Fez - No, más tonto tú.
All - No, tontísisimo.
Fez -Tontisisisisimo.
Signed - The evil TTL!
Pro-free market? Look, we have another neoclassicist - what was that about redistributing people's wealth when they die instead of allowing inheritance? 
Oh, and yes I agree, Carthago delenda est and all countries should subject themselves to deditio in Latin America. Shame that what you are saying is sooo 2,300 years ago. I mean, like what's up with you, dude? let's try a little hipness in the forum.II. 193 And fight them until there is no more tumult and oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.Comment
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First off, redistribution of income is in all sense communist and not permittable. People must earn there way through. Therefore the education system of the country has to be built up, so people have greater chances.what was that about redistributing people's wealth when they die instead of allowing inheritance?
What you are saying is communist therefore illogical.
Your beliefs are so out of date.
BTW, mine mostly rise from years of the 1980s with Ronald Reagan.For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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I have seen no evidence presented that the Chavez government has ignored the rulings of the courts. It like the claim, prior to the April coup, that Chavez was attacking the press: the OAS did a study, and they found no validity to those claims that the Chavez government was attacking the press. I have seem no reports of the government ignoring court rulings.Originally posted by Fez
Ok, Gepap I do see your point with political stability. It is needed for investment. But...
Then they should leave the government to continue committing violations of the consititution and not do anything about it? The Chavez government didn't even listen to the courts anymore.
The oppostion simply has gone too far: it is one thing to protest to demand changes in policy, and to bring legal chalanges to the president's policies. It is another thing to demand the colapse of a democratically elected government and violations fo the constitution. Such acts breed violence and political chaos. Chavez is in power, again, for a reason: because a sector of Venezuela wants him in power. They won the elections last time. If they ared enied their rightful say, why should they see as legitimate any future government?
El Leon:
Stalinist? Well, Fez you are a Friedmanist! :
Latin America needs no more "Chicago Boys".
Oh, and the rules of Poly don't appreciate too much espanol (dammit, I can never get special characters to work!)If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard ShawComment
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I do not have anything more to say.... apparently you are ignoring every point I try to make.For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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