Venezuelan opposition march

[El León]

Originally posted by Fez


First off, redistribution of income is in all sense communist and not permittable. People must earn there way through. Therefore the education system of the country has to be built up, so people have greater chances.

What you are saying is communist therefore illogical.

Your beliefs are so out of date.

BTW, mine mostly rise from years of the 1980s with Ronald Reagan.

A little reading in your spare time may help. Even the goal of the free market is the most efficient distribution of wealth possible. Communism is a utopia, but I agree, state capitalism does not make sense.
You got your beliefs from an actor? Oh well.
And they are not all that original. Like I said, do some reading. You may learn something (at least to not accept actor's words unconditionally).

And yes, Carthago Delenda Est.

[Giancarlo]

Ronald Reagan is a neo-classicist, and a hero. So that is where I got my beliefs from. I got my beliefs from the time he was a president. Long after his acting career was over pal.

[GePap]

DEATH TO REAGAN, AND DISCUSSIONS ABOUT REAGAN!

Back on topic, you two!

So, Fez, what was that point you tried to make but that was ignored?

Maybe this multile choice question will help:

That Chavez should call early elections because...?

a)He is a dictator
b) the crisis must be brought to an end
c) both of the above
d) Other...

[El León]

Originally posted by Fez
Ronald Reagan is a neo-classicist, and a hero. So that is where I got my beliefs from. I got my beliefs from the time he was a president. Long after his acting career was over pal.

Nope, Reagan was not a neo-classicist (the library needs your gracious patronage). And no, we are clearly not ignoring you, but your failure to debate taking into account some of the rules of logic (library... where art thou?), for example avoiding ad hominems, appeals to the crowd, non-non sequiteurs, etc. makes it quite difficult to answer to things like "what you are saying is communist and therefore illogical."

But don't go away, yet, it's starting to be fun.

Anyway, back to Venezuela, I think from the US perspective, it does not make too much sense to push the country dangerously into a civil war. They may end up with another Castro. And the correlation in South America is changing. Argentina is quite volatile and Brazil is a wild card. Colombia, well... that has not worked out for a long time, now has it? So their best bet is stability, waiting it out a few months. Or endangering the oil market even further...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by GePap
DEATH TO REAGAN, AND DISCUSSIONS ABOUT REAGAN!

Reagan is a hero. So you be quiet. I will answer your little question anyways...

So, Fez, what was that point you tried to make but that was ignored?
[/QUOTE]

Well, the fact that early elections must be called. Venezuela won't last another six months under Chavez.

[Arrian]

DEATH TO REAGAN!

You prolly won't have to wait much longer.

I agree with GePap re: following the constitution. I think that it is essential for democracies that all participants in the political process respect the rules of the game, and act accordingly.

Therefore, though I'm no socialist, I think the Chavez opponents are in the wrong here. They should wait for the next elections and fight it out then, via legal, constitutional means.

-Arrian

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Leon


Nope, Reagan was not a neo-classicist (the library needs your gracious patronage). And no, we are clearly not ignoring you,

Yes, Reagan was a neo-classicist.

but your failure to debate taking into account some of the rules of logic (library... where art thou?), for example avoiding ad hominems, appeals to the crowd, non-non sequiteurs, etc. makes it quite difficult to answer to things like "what you are saying is communist and therefore illogical."

Enough of this vomit! TAKE YOUR BELIEFS AND BEAT IT. I am tired of responding to your crap.

Anyway, back to Venezuela, I think from the US perspective, it does not make too much sense to push the country dangerously into a civil war. They may end up with another Castro. And the correlation in South America is changing. Argentina is quite volatile and Brazil is a wild card. Colombia, well... that has not worked out for a long time, now has it? So their best bet is stability, waiting it out a few months. Or endangering the oil market even further...

The oil market isn't endangered. There are plenty of reserves elsewhere.

[chequita guevara]

Chavez can't call early elections, at least according to his interpretation of the Constitution (which is probably self-serving but then he did write the Constitution so he probably knows it better than most). All he can do is resign, which is a perfectly legitimate demand on the part of the strikers.

Does anyone know of a translation of the Venezuelan constitution we could peruse?

In the meantime:

Venezuelan Govt. Decrees Strike-Breaking Powers


Dec 18, 12:49 pm ET

By Pascal Fletcher
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's government on Wednesday authorized the military to commandeer private ships, trucks and planes to distribute fuel and food as it intensified the effort to break an opposition strike throttling oil exports and domestic supplies.

Citing national security and the need to guarantee fuel and food deliveries to the population, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's government decreed the measures as the crippling strike entered its 17th day in the world's No. 5 oil exporter.

In Caracas, groups of flag-waving demonstrators demanding the resignation of the leftist leader blocked some highways and avenues, snarling traffic, as the opposition carried its protest campaign onto the streets in support of the shutdown.

Former paratrooper Chavez, who was elected in 1998 and survived a coup in April, is refusing opposition calls to quit and stage early elections. He has vowed to break the strike.

With neither side giving ground, a tense deadlock is gripping the oil-rich nation.

Foes accuse the populist president of ruining the economy and trying to turn Venezuela into a communist state modeled on Fidel Castro's Cuba. Chavez says his self-styled "revolution" is aimed at closing the wide gap between rich and poor.

The strike has crippled South America's largest oil producer, slashing output to less than 15 percent of normal levels and sending shock waves through world oil markets.

Increasing fears of a U.S. war on Iraq, coupled with the Venezuelan disruption, pushed U.S crude oil futures on Wednesday to above $31 dollars a barrel. The United States imports more than 13 percent of its oil supplies from Venezuela.

ROAD BLOCKS

In the capital, anti-government protesters used cars, bicycles and even garbage to set up roadblocks across some major highways, especially in eastern opposition strongholds.

"This mad president has got to go," said housewife Dernina Hernandez. Fights broke out as some motorists tried to pass and police fired tear gas at some demonstrators. At one block, however, protesters played soccer.

The government said the strike was affecting distribution and sale of gasoline and basic foodstuffs. Fears of shortages have sent Venezuelans scrambling to banks, shops and gas stations.

"Privately owned maritime, land and air transport assets used for public supply, storage and distribution of oil and (oil products), and food, can be operated by authorized civilian personnel or the armed forces, until services return to normal, without affecting property rights," the decree said.

Shipping sources said troops had seized two privately owned tugboats in Puerto Cabello, west of Caracas.

Agriculture Minister Efren Andrade said the measure was lawful and would not involve punitive takeovers of striking private food or fuel companies. "It's a proactive measure to restore the whole Venezuelan production chain," he said.

To counter the shutdown, which officials say is costing the nation millions of dollars a day, Chavez has sent troops to take over idled state-run oil tankers, refineries and ports.

He has rebuffed calls for early elections, telling foes they must wait until August next year, halfway through his current term, when the constitution allows for a binding referendum on his rule. The opposition is pressing Chavez to step down immediately.

NO SIGN OF COUP

In a move that appeared to bolster the president and ward off coup fears for the moment, Venezuela's army this week condemned the opposition strike as "sabotage."

One powerful pro-Chavez army commander, Gen. Raul Baduel, rejected calls for a coup. "A lot of people call me telling me to stage a coup, to do something ... they're trying to give the armed forces a role that isn't healthy for democracy," he said in an interview with the Spanish newspaper La Vanguardia.

With strikers in the oil sector holding firm, the soldiers have been unable to restart oil industry operations because they cannot operate the sophisticated equipment.

The opposition has condemned Chavez's strike-breaking moves, vowing to step up street protests. Thousands of demonstrators marched in Caracas on Tuesday, but a huge security operation kept them away from Chavez sympathizers.

The United States and other countries are urging Venezuela's government and opposition to negotiate a deal on elections before the conflict escalates into all-out violence. More than 60 people were killed in street violence during the April coup.

Talks between the two sides, brokered by Organization of American States Secretary-General Cesar Gaviria, have been unsuccessful so far, but are continuing.

[Arrian]

*sigh* This thread has been thoroughly Fezzed.

[JCG]

Very Fezzed indeed.

If Chavez uses that to crack down hard on the opposition, he'll be leaving himself dangerously wide open...

[chequita guevara]

DinoDoc, while I haven't seen any evidence that the CIA is in someway behind the strike, it's not outside the realm of possibility. We've done it before, in Chile for example. Destabilization is an old trick.

Given the lack of a Cold War, however, I can't see the adminstration being paranoid about Soviet influence or the country going communist. On the other hand, Venezuela does provide cheap oil to Cuba, which definately pisses off the US. Chavez's wealth redistribution interferes with the ability of US corporations to extract maximum profit. It serves as a bad example to other Latin American countries that they don't need to kow-tow to the neo-liberal agenda of Washington. I don't think, however, that the Venezuelan elites needed much promtping, however.

I find it disturbing that Fez reports that the coup-plotters and members were released by the courts, if is true. They are criminals and traitors (sine they didn't win), and ought to be in jail awaiting trial. Apparently the courts are against Chavez as well.

[GePap]

Che

While the oppostion can call for whatever it wants, its strategy of trying to bring the state to ruin in order to get it can lead to nothing good. Besides bringing economic chaos, they have also emboldened radical Chavez supporters, and if Chavez were to resign, these radicals would probalby take violent action to thte street, and political chaos.

I think the stance of the military is wise, given what occured in April. As for what Chavez will do, i agree e needs to keep any crackdown light.

[El León]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Chavez can't call early elections, at least according to his interpretation of the Constitution (which is probably self-serving but then he did write the Constitution so he probably knows it better than most). All he can do is resign, which is a perfectly legitimate demand on the part of the strikers.

Yep. An overthrow would create a baaad example. What happens when the next president cannot immediately respond to some of the populations most urgent needs? Blockades in the streets?
Cracking hard on the opposition will not be helpful, like I said, it can push a civil war in a country so divided and with Colombia and its weapons nearby.

[El León]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
DinoDoc, while I haven't seen any evidence that the CIA is in someway behind the strike, it's not outside the realm of possibility. We've done it before, in Chile for example. Destabilization is an old trick.

There are tow very suspicious items. One is the presence of the US ambassador around the time of the coup. The other -gasp- (not that again), is the presence of a U.S. union liaison around the Venezuelan anti-chavez unions.
Turning the question around, can we expect the US government to stand aside?

[DanS]

*DanS joins the opposition march against all Fezzing*